Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies

Liste des GroupesRevenir à s logic 
Sujet : Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 20. Jun 2024, 02:23:57
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v4vsqt$ggem$1@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 6/19/24 9:00 AM, olcott wrote:
On 6/19/2024 3:08 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jun.2024 om 18:26 schreef olcott:
On 6/18/2024 10:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jun.2024 om 17:33 schreef olcott:
On 6/18/2024 10:20 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>
It is a verified fact that serious C people have recently
agreed to the following verbatim statement in the C group.
>
http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cv4pg5p%24morv%241%40raubtier-asyl.eternal-september.org%3E+
>
You either lack this degree of skill in C or are only
interested in playing head games.
>
I have seen the response. It was most certainly not a serious reply.
But you know apparently to little of C to understand that.
Probably, because you are unable to escape from rebuttal mode, even if the truth is obvious.
>
>
I have known C since K&R was the standard and met
Bjarne Stroustrup when he came to our university
to promote his new C++ programming language.
>
*You seem to be willfully ignorant*
>
It was your own proof that showed that in
>
        int main()
        {
          return H(main);
        }
>
>
main halts, whereas H reported non-halting. So, it you were honest you would stop claiming that H is correct.
>
>
That is merely a more difficult to understand version of this
same pathological relationship.
>
int main()
{
   Output("Input_Halts = ", HH0(main));
}
>
_main()
[000020c2] 55         push ebp
[000020c3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
[000020cf] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000020d2] 50         push eax
[000020d3] 6843070000 push 00000743
[000020d8] e885e6ffff call 00000762
[000020dd] 83c408     add esp,+08
[000020e0] eb04       jmp 000020e6
[000020e2] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000020e4] eb02       jmp 000020e8
[000020e6] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000020e8] 5d         pop ebp
[000020e9] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0040) [000020e9]
>
  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
[000020c2][001036c3][00000000] 55         push ebp
[000020c3][001036c3][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5][001036bf][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca][001036bb][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
New slave_stack at:103767
>
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11376f
[000020c2][0011375f][00113763] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
[000020c3][0011375f][00113763] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5][0011375b][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca][00113757][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
New slave_stack at:14e18f
[000020c2][0015e187][0015e18b] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
[000020c3][0015e187][0015e18b] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5][0015e183][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca][0015e17f][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
[000020cf][001036c3][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000020d2][001036bf][00000000] 50         push eax
[000020d3][001036bb][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743
[000020d8][001036bb][00000743] e885e6ffff call 00000762
Input_Halts = 0
[000020dd][001036c3][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
[000020e0][001036c3][00000000] eb04       jmp 000020e6
[000020e6][001036c3][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000020e8][001036c7][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
[000020e9][001036cb][00000000] c3         ret           ; exit main
Number of Instructions Executed(10070) == 150 Pages
>
>
It is easier to understand because a print statement was added.
You proved that it halts, but H0 reports non-halting.
So, it produces a false negative.
So, now it has been proved that H, H0, etc produce false negatives, when used to determine halting behaviour, please, stop to call them halt-deciders, or termination-deciders.
They might be "simulation deciders". When returning true, the simulation was correct, when false, the full simulation was not possible.
 I don't want to discuss your screwy example because I
can't use screwy examples in my paper.
 void DDD()
{
   H0(DDD);
}
 _DDD()
[000020a2] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[000020a3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[000020a5] 68a2200000 push 000020a2 ; push DDD
[000020aa] e8f3f9ffff call 00001aa2 ; call H0
[000020af] 83c404     add esp,+04   ; housekeeping
[000020b2] 5d         pop ebp       ; housekeeping
[000020b3] c3         ret           ; never gets here
Size in bytes:(0018) [000020b3]
 Exactly which step of DDD emulated by H0 was emulated
incorrectly such that this emulation would be complete?
AKA DDD emulated by H0 reaches machine address [000020b3]
 >
Why does H0 NEED to be able to correctly simulate its input?
Your question is just a Strawman, replacing the OBJECTIVE criteria of the behavior of the machine represented by the input (which inlcudes the code for H0) with the SUBJECTIVE question of what H0 thinks about it.
And, your H0 doesn't correctly simulate the input, as the *ONLY* correct simulation of that input would be:
simulate the push ebp
simulate the mov ebp,esp
simulate the push 000020a2
simulate the call 00001aa2
simulate the instruction at 00001aa2
since that isn't what you have ever shown as the simulation by H0, you have lost the right to call its simulation "correct".
Sorry, your argument is just a lie.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
17 Jun 24 * Simulating termination analyzers for dummies115olcott
17 Jun 24 `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies114Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies113olcott
17 Jun 24   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies44Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies43olcott
17 Jun 24   i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies42Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24   i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies41olcott
17 Jun 24   i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies40Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24   i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies39olcott
18 Jun 24   i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies38Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24   i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies37olcott
18 Jun 24   i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Python
18 Jun 24   i       i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24   i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies32Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24   i       i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies31olcott
18 Jun 24   i       i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies27Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24   i       i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies26olcott
18 Jun 24   i       i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2Python
18 Jun 24   i       i i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies23Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24   i       i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies22olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i i   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies5Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24   i       i i   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies4olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i i   i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24   i       i i   i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i   i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Fred. Zwarts
20 Jun 24   i       i i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies16Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies15olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies14Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies13olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i       `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies12Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i        `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies11olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i         +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i         i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i         i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
21 Jun 24   i       i i         `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies7joes
21 Jun 24   i       i i          `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies6olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i           +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2joes
21 Jun 24   i       i i           i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i           `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Richard Damon
21 Jun 24   i       i i            `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i             `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24   i       i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2Python
18 Jun 24   i       i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
19 Jun 24   i       `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies68Richard Damon
18 Jun 24    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies67olcott
18 Jun 24     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies66Richard Damon
18 Jun 24      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies65olcott
18 Jun 24       `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies64Richard Damon
18 Jun 24        `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies63olcott
18 Jun 24         `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies62Richard Damon
18 Jun 24          `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies61olcott
18 Jun 24           `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies60Richard Damon
18 Jun 24            `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies59olcott
18 Jun 24             +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies57Richard Damon
18 Jun 24             i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies56olcott
18 Jun 24             i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies54joes
18 Jun 24             i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?53olcott
18 Jun 24             i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?15joes
18 Jun 24             i i i+* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?5olcott
18 Jun 24             i i ii`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4joes
18 Jun 24             i i ii `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?3olcott
19 Jun 24             i i ii  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?2joes
19 Jun 24             i i ii   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- test of dishonesty1olcott
18 Jun 24             i i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?9olcott
18 Jun 24             i i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?8Alan Mackenzie
22 Jun 24             i i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?7olcott
22 Jun 24             i i i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?6Richard Damon
22 Jun 24             i i i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met5olcott
22 Jun 24             i i i     +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met3Richard Damon
22 Jun 24             i i i     i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met2olcott
22 Jun 24             i i i     i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met1Richard Damon
22 Jun 24             i i i     `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met1joes
19 Jun 24             i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?23Richard Damon
19 Jun 24             i i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?22olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?17Richard Damon
19 Jun 24             i i i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?16olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?5joes
19 Jun 24             i i i i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?3joes
19 Jun 24             i i i i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- the only reply until addressed2olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i i i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- the only reply until addressed1joes
19 Jun 24             i i i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?10Richard Damon
19 Jun 24             i i i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?9olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i i   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?7joes
19 Jun 24             i i i i   i+* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?2olcott
20 Jun 24             i i i i   ii`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1Richard Damon
19 Jun 24             i i i i   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i i   i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?2joes
19 Jun 24             i i i i   i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1olcott
20 Jun 24             i i i i   i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1Richard Damon
20 Jun 24             i i i i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1Richard Damon
19 Jun 24             i i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4joes
19 Jun 24             i i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?3olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i   +- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1joes
20 Jun 24             i i i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1Richard Damon
19 Jun 24             i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?14Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24             i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?13olcott
19 Jun 24             i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24             `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Python

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