Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?

Liste des GroupesRevenir à s logic 
Sujet : Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?
De : noreply (at) *nospam* example.com (joes)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 20. Jun 2024, 18:29:33
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v51ldd$inq6$2@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
User-Agent : Pan/0.145 (Duplicitous mercenary valetism; d7e168a git.gnome.org/pan2)
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2024 09:16:32 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 6/20/2024 3:23 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 19.jun.2024 om 18:10 schreef olcott:
On 6/19/2024 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 19.jun.2024 om 17:07 schreef olcott:
On 6/19/2024 9:11 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 19.jun.2024 om 15:11 schreef olcott:
On 6/19/2024 3:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jun.2024 om 19:25 schreef olcott:
On 6/18/2024 12:06 PM, joes wrote:
>
void DDD()
{
   H0(DDD);
}
DDD halts iff H0 halts.

Some TM's loop and thus never stop running, this is classical
non-halting behavior. UTM's simulate Turing machine
descriptions.
This is the same thing as an interpreter interpreting the
source-code of a program.
>
A UTM can be adapted so that it only simulates a fixed number of
iterations of an input that loops. When this UTM stops
simulating this Turing machine description we cannot correctly
say that this looping input halted.
>
If the code specifies 5 iterations and the simulator simulates
only 3 iterations, it is incorrect to conclude that the
repetition show non-halting behaviour.

Similarly, when your H, H0, or other H simulates itself, its
simulation aborts one cycle too early and therefore the
non-halting conclusion is incorrect.
>
I was confused bout this for three days four years ago and then I
got over it. No simulating termination analyzer can wait for an
inner instance of itself to abort the simulation or it waits
forever.

No, I understand it perfectly, but it seems to be over your head.
We agree that H needs to stop to prevent infinite recursion, but it
is over your head to see that when it stops, it misses the part of
itself where its simulation also stops, one repeating state
further. So, the non-halting conclusion is wrong, because the abort
is premature.
>
typedef void (*ptr)();
int H0(ptr P);
>
void DDD()
{
   H0(DDD);
}
int main()
{
   H0(DDD);
}
>
Every C programmer that knows what an x86 emulator is knows that
when H0 emulates the machine language of
DDD that it must abort these emulations so that itself can
terminate normally.
>
That might be true, but every competent C programmer also knows that
such an abort would cause an incorrect simulation.
>
*Not at all*
[blah blah Sipser]
 
It seems you never learn. There is no correct simulation,
so Sipser words do not apply.
Either not paying attention or deliberately deceptive.

*H correctly simulates its input D*
*until H correctly determines that its simulated D*
whence it stops simulating (correctly, or at all)
*would never stop running unless aborted then*
stops simulating the following steps.
*This is simulating a finite number of steps of a non-terminating input*
I.e. not a full simulation.

--
Man kann mit dunklen Zahlen nicht rechnen. Für die eigentliche Mathematik
sind sie vollkommen nutzlos. --Wolfgang Mückenheim

Date Sujet#  Auteur
17 Jun 24 * Simulating termination analyzers for dummies115olcott
17 Jun 24 `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies114Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies113olcott
17 Jun 24   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies44Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies43olcott
17 Jun 24   i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies42Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24   i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies41olcott
17 Jun 24   i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies40Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24   i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies39olcott
18 Jun 24   i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies38Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24   i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies37olcott
18 Jun 24   i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Python
18 Jun 24   i       i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24   i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies32Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24   i       i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies31olcott
18 Jun 24   i       i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies27Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24   i       i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies26olcott
18 Jun 24   i       i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2Python
18 Jun 24   i       i i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies23Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24   i       i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies22olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i i   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies5Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24   i       i i   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies4olcott
19 Jun 24   i       i i   i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24   i       i i   i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i   i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Fred. Zwarts
20 Jun 24   i       i i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies16Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies15olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies14Richard Damon
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20 Jun 24   i       i i       `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies12Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i        `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies11olcott
20 Jun 24   i       i i         +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Richard Damon
20 Jun 24   i       i i         i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i         i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
21 Jun 24   i       i i         `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies7joes
21 Jun 24   i       i i          `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies6olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i           +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2joes
21 Jun 24   i       i i           i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i           `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Richard Damon
21 Jun 24   i       i i            `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24   i       i i             `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
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18 Jun 24   i       i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
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19 Jun 24   i       `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
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18 Jun 24    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies67olcott
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18 Jun 24      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies65olcott
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18 Jun 24          `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies61olcott
18 Jun 24           `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies60Richard Damon
18 Jun 24            `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies59olcott
18 Jun 24             +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies57Richard Damon
18 Jun 24             i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies56olcott
18 Jun 24             i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies54joes
18 Jun 24             i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?53olcott
18 Jun 24             i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?15joes
18 Jun 24             i i i+* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?5olcott
18 Jun 24             i i ii`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4joes
18 Jun 24             i i ii `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?3olcott
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19 Jun 24             i i i i i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- the only reply until addressed1joes
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19 Jun 24             i i i i   i+* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?2olcott
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19 Jun 24             i i i i   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4olcott
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19 Jun 24             i i i i   i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1olcott
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19 Jun 24             i i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?3olcott
19 Jun 24             i i i   +- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1joes
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