Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement

Liste des GroupesRevenir à s logic 
Sujet : Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 05. Jul 2024, 15:16:47
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v68rnv$39tml$2@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 7/5/2024 7:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 05.jul.2024 om 14:19 schreef olcott:
On 7/5/2024 3:32 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 04.jul.2024 om 22:18 schreef olcott:
On 7/4/2024 3:04 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 04.jul.2024 om 21:45 schreef olcott:
On 7/4/2024 2:40 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 04.jul.2024 om 21:30 schreef olcott:
On 7/4/2024 2:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>
I showed that HHH cannot possibly correctly simulate itself.
>
I proved otherwise, Liar.
https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf
>
No, this trace supports my claim. When we look at this trace we see that
>
HHH is simulating itself simulating DDD until it sees
that DDD is calling HHH in recursive simulation such
that neither the simulated DDD nor the simulated HHH
can possibly stop running unless HHH aborts its DDD.
>
The 'unless HHH aborts ...' is irrelevant and misleading,
>
Not at all. Not in the least little bit.
A halt decider must PREDICT what its input would do.
>
Yes and when it must predict what a simulator that is programmed to abort would do, it should predict that the it will abort and halt. If it predicts something different, then it is incorrect.
If it aborts and ignore that last part of the input, it is incorrect.
>
>
When a bear is running at you to kill you it is not
enough that you only predict that you will shoot the
bear. You must actually shoot the bear or you will be killed.
 Exactly! Similarly, if a program is programmed to halt, the simulation of it should not only predict that it will halt, but the simulation must actually let it halt, as the simulated program is programmed to do. HHH fails at both. Its prediction is incorrect and its action is incorrect.
 
You are either a liar or incompetent
when correctly emulated by HHH there
is no "letting" these functions halt.
void Infinite_Loop()
{
   HERE: goto HERE;
}
void Infinite_Recursion()
{
   Infinite_Recursion();
}
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
}
int main()
{
   HHH(Infinite_Loop);
   HHH(Infinite_Recursion);
   HHH(DDD);
}

It is as if you predict that the bear will not kill and therefore you do not shoot. A wrong prediction and a wrong action can be fatal.
 However, HHH simulating itself cannot possibly do that correctly, because it is programmed to abort prematurely, before its simulated self would abort and halt. So, both its prediction and its action are incorrect.
 
>
Professor Sipser recognized this as inherently correct.
>
But that did not apply, because its context was a *correct* simulation. His agreement does not include *incorrect* simulations.
Sipser would agree that HHH, when aborting a simulation of itself and missing the last part of the input is incorrect.
>
>
Introduction to the Theory of Computation, by Michael Sipser
https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Theory-Computation-Michael-Sipser/dp/113318779X/
>
He is the #1 best selling author of textbooks on computation
theory. Ben did contact him to verify that he did say this.
>
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
     If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>
Note the word 'correctly'. So, it does not apply to the simulation of HHH by itself, which cannot possibly correctly simulate itself.
>
     until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
     stop running unless aborted then
>
     H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
     specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
</MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>
Ben also agreed that D correctly simulated by H DOES MEET THIS CRITERIA.
>
On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's
 > trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P)
 > *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
...
 > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it were not
 > halted.  That much is a truism.
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
3 Jul 24 * Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan112olcott
3 Jul 24 +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan100Fred. Zwarts
3 Jul 24 i`* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan99olcott
3 Jul 24 i `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan98Fred. Zwarts
3 Jul 24 i  `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan97olcott
3 Jul 24 i   `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan96Fred. Zwarts
3 Jul 24 i    `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan95olcott
3 Jul 24 i     `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan94Fred. Zwarts
3 Jul 24 i      `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan93olcott
4 Jul 24 i       `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan92Fred. Zwarts
4 Jul 24 i        `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan91olcott
4 Jul 24 i         +- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott (self-admitted)1Richard Damon
4 Jul 24 i         `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan89Fred. Zwarts
4 Jul 24 i          `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan88olcott
4 Jul 24 i           `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan87Fred. Zwarts
4 Jul 24 i            `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan86olcott
4 Jul 24 i             `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan85Fred. Zwarts
4 Jul 24 i              `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement84olcott
5 Jul 24 i               +- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
5 Jul 24 i               `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement82Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul 24 i                `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement81olcott
5 Jul 24 i                 +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement79Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul 24 i                 i`* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement78olcott
5 Jul 24 i                 i `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement77Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul 24 i                 i  `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement76olcott
5 Jul 24 i                 i   `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement75Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul 24 i                 i    `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement74olcott
5 Jul 24 i                 i     +- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i     `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement72Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul 24 i                 i      `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement71olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i       +- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott who doesn't under stand Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i       `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement69Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul 24 i                 i        +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement3olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i        i+- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i        i`- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul 24 i                 i        `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement65olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i         +- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i         `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement63Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul 24 i                 i          `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement62olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i           +- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott1Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i           `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement60Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul 24 i                 i            `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement59olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i             +- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott1Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i             +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement35Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i`* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar34olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar33Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i  `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?32olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i   `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?31Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i    `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?30olcott
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i     `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?29Richard Damon
6 Jul 24 i                 i             i      `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?28olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i       `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?27Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i        `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?26olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i         `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?25Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i          `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?24olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i           `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?23Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i            `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?22olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i             `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?21Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i              `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?20olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i               `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?19Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?18olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                 `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?17Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?8olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i`* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar?7Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar!6olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i  `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar!5Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i   `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar !!!4olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i    `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar !!!3Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i     `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar !!!2olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  i      `- Re: Liar detector: Olcott is a Liar !!!1Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                  `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Richard is a Liar !!!8olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                   `* Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott is a Liar !!!7Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                    `* Richard is a Liar6olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                     `* Re: Richard is a Liar5Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                      `* Re: Richard is a Liar4olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                       `* Re: Olcott is a Liar3Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                        `* Is Richard a Liar?2olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i             i                         `- Re: Olcott IS a Liar!1Richard Damon
7 Jul 24 i                 i             `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement22Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul 24 i                 i              `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement21olcott
7 Jul 24 i                 i               +- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott1Richard Damon
8 Jul 24 i                 i               `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement19Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul 24 i                 i                `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement18olcott
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement4olcott
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 i+* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement2joes
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 ii`- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1olcott
9 Jul 24 i                 i                 i`- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott lies1Richard Damon
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement12Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 i`* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement11olcott
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 i `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement10Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul 24 i                 i                 i  `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement9olcott
9 Jul 24 i                 i                 i   +* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement5Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul 24 i                 i                 i   i`* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement4olcott
10 Jul 24 i                 i                 i   i `* Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott --- Ben's agreement3Richard Damon
10 Jul 24 i                 i                 i   i  `* a complete emulation of this input could be done --- Liar2olcott
10 Jul 24 i                 i                 i   i   `- Re: a complete emulation of this input could be done --- Liar1Richard Damon
9 Jul 24 i                 i                 i   `* Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement3olcott
10 Jul 24 i                 i                 i    +- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott --- Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
12 Jul 24 i                 i                 i    `- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1olcott
9 Jul 24 i                 i                 `- Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott found lying.1Richard Damon
5 Jul 24 i                 `- Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement1Richard Damon
4 Jul 24 `* Re: Liar detector: Peter OLCOTT YES!11Richard Damon

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