Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski

Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski
De : mikko.levanto (at) *nospam* iki.fi (Mikko)
Groupes : sci.logic
Date : 17. May 2024, 17:56:13

Autres entêtes

Organisation : -
Message-ID : <v27umt$28rvg$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
User-Agent : Unison/2.2

On 2024-05-16 16:00:59 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/15/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-14 15:18:22 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/14/2024 4:16 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-13 14:34:12 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/13/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-12 17:19:48 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/12/2024 10:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-12 14:22:25 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/12/2024 2:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-11 04:27:03 +0000, olcott said:

On 5/10/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/10/24 11:35 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/10/2024 10:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/10/24 10:36 PM, olcott wrote:
The entire body of expressions that are {true on the basis of their
meaning} involves nothing more or less than stipulated relations between
finite strings.

You do know that what you are describing when applied to Formal Systems are the axioms of the system and the most primitively provable theorems.

YES and there are axioms that comprise the verbal model of the
actual world, thus Quine was wrong.
You don't understand what Quite was talking about,

I don't need to know anything about what he was talking about
except that he disagreed with {true on the basis or meaning}.
I don't care or need to know how he got to an incorrect answer.

You don't seem to understand what "Formal Logic" actually means.

Ultimately it is anchored in stipulated relations between finite
strings (AKA axioms) and expressions derived from applying truth
preserving operations to these axioms.
Which you don't seem to understand what that means.

I understand this much more deeply than you do.
In and about formal logic there is no valid deep understanding. Only
a shallow understanding can be valid.

It turns out that ALL {true on the basis of meaning} that includes
ALL of logic and math has its entire foundation in relations between
finite strings. Some are stipulated to be true (axioms) and some
are derived by applying truth preserving operations to these axioms.
Usually the word "true" is not used when talking about uninterpreted
formal systems. Axioms and what can be inferred from axioms are called
"theorems". Theorems can be true in some interpretations and false in
another. If the system is incosistent then there is no interpretation
where all axioms are true.

I am not talking about how these things are usually spoken of. I am
talking about my unique contribution to the actual philosophical
foundation of {true on the basis of meaning}.
What matters is that you are not talking about those things as they
are usually spoken of. The consequence is that nobody is going to
understand you, and the consequence of that probably is that you
cannot contribute.

This is entirely comprised of relations between finite strings:
some of which are stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean
true, and others derived from applying truth preserving operations
to these finite string.
Most of that doesn't require any stipulations about semantics but
can be done with finite strings and their relations. Semantics is
only needed to choose interesting problems and, if a problem can
be solved, to interprete the solution.

The only way that a system of formalized natural language can
possibly know that {dogs} <are> {animals} is that it must be told.
See also Davidson's truth conditional semantics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth-conditional_semantics
The only way that "dogs are animals" acquires semantic
meaning is the stipulated relation: {dogs} <are> {animals}.

This is approximately equivalent to proofs from axioms.
It shouod be exactly equivalent.

It is not exactly the same thing because an infinite sequence of
inference steps may sometimes be required.
Infinite sequences create more problem than they solve. For example,
you can prove that 1 = 2 with the infinite sequence

For real world things that are never required. The various
conjectures seem to require an infinite sequence of inference steps.
That is not known. There are real world problems that are not yet
solved without an infinite seqeunce of inference steps and there
remains the possibility that some of them, or one that is not yet
thought to be a problem but will be, that cannot be solved without
an infinite sequence of inference steps.
Anyway, whether real world problems are solvable without an infinite
sequence of inference steps is irrelevanto to the topic "True on the
basis of meaning".

My whole purpose with this whole thread is to show exactly how
epistemological antinomies can be recognized and rejected thus
not form the basis for any undecidability proofs or Tarski's
undefinability theorem.
There are provable sentences of the form A -> B where A is some
hypthesis and B is an epistemological antimńomy. How are these
true statments handled when B is rejected?
Epistemological antinomies have no truth value and implication
requires a pair of truth bearers that have a Boolean value thus
your expression is rejected as a type mismatch error.

So if X is true and Y something complicated we cannot trust that
X or Y is true without analyzing that Y?
--
Mikko

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
11 May 24	True on the basis of meaning	209	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	208	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	207	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	206	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	205	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	203	Mikko
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	202	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	201	Mikko
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	200	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	183	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	182	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	181	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	180	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	163	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	162	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	161	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	160	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	159	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	158	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	155	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	154	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	153	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	152	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	151	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	150	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	149	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	146	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	145	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	126	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	125	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	124	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	123	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	115	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	114	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	113	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	112	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	111	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	108	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	105	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	104	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	103	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	102	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	101	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	100	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	99	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	98	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	97	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	96	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	95	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	94	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	93	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	92	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	91	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	90	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	85	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	84	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	83	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	82	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	81	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	80	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	79	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Mikko
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Mikko
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	16	Mikko
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski	16	olcott