Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 19. May 2024, 13:55:13

Autres entêtes

Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v2cpb1$1g2n8$1@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird

On 5/18/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/18/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 6:47 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 5:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 2:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 3:46 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 12:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 11:56 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 9:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 7:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
No, your system contradicts itself.
>
>
You have never shown this.
The most you have shown is a lack of understanding of the
Truth Teller Paradox.
>
No, I have, but you don't understand the proof, it seems because you don't know what a "Truth Predicate" has been defined to be.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
And thus, When True(L, p) established a sequence of truth preserving operations eminationg from ~True(L, p) by returning false, it contradicts itself. The problem is that True, in making an answer of false, has asserted that such a sequence exists.
>
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/13/2024 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>
>>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) ...
>>
>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
>> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive p?
> No, so True(L, p) is false
>>
>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
>> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>
> No, so False(L, p) is false,
>
>
*To help you concentrate I repeated this*
The Liar Paradox and your formalized Liar Paradox both
contradict themselves that is why they must be screened
out as type mismatch error non-truth-bearers *BEFORE THAT OCCURS*
>
And the Truth Predicate isn't allowed to "filter" out expressions.
>
>
YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T
WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN
THE FORMAL SYSTEM USES THE TRUE AND FALSE PREDICATE
TO FILTER OUT TYPE MISMATCH ERROR
>
The first thing that the formal system does with any
arbitrary finite string input is see if it is a Truth-bearer:
Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
No, we can ask True(L, x) for any expression x and get an answer.
>
>
The system is designed so you can ask this, yet non-truth-bearers
are rejected before True(L, x) is allowed to be called.
>
>
>
>
Not allowed.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
A set of finite string semantic meanings that form an accurate
verbal model of the general knowledge of the actual world that
form a finite set of finite strings that are stipulated to have
the semantic value of Boolean true.
>
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
>
>
So, for a statement x to be false, it says that there must be a sequence of truth perserving operations that derive ~x from, right?
>
Yes we must build from mutual agreement, good.

So do you still say that for p defined in L as ~True(L, p) that your definition will say that True(L, p) will return false?
>
It is the perfectly isomorphic to this:
True(English, "This sentence is not true")

Nope, Because "This sentece is not true" can be a non-truth-bearer, but by its definition, True(L, x) can not.
Maybe your problem is you just forgot to learn the meaning of the key words in the things you want to talk about.

That means that the predicate establishes that there IS a seriers of truth perservion operations that derive the expreson ~True(L, p).
>
You keep confusing:
This sentence is not true.
with
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true".
I have spent 20,000 hours on this YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY ACTUAL MISTAKE.

I have been using NEITHER of those sentences, only YOU have in your confusion.
If your problem is that you can not think of Formal statements as Formal statement, but need to translate them into sloppy English, that is YOUR problem, and means you need to just admit you don't know what you are talking about.

And if so, doesnt that mean that the truth value of p will be true, since p is defined as the logical negation of True(L, p), which we just establish HAS a sequence of truth perservion operations as indicated by the truth predicate.
>
In Prolog both the Liar Paradox and the Truth Teller Paradox
get stuck in an infinite loop (technically a cycle in the directed
graph of their evaluation sequence).

I don't CARE are PROLOG, as it doesn't actually define what we are talking about.
P

https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2
Catches this cycle and reject it.

So, that just means that Prolog (or you) can not handle the logic system, as one of the requirements for the proof was that the logic was capable of expressing sentences with references to sentences, even its self.

This sentence is not true.
What is it not true about?
It is not true about being not true.
What is it not true about being not true about?
It is not true about being not true about being not true...

RED HERRING
Proving you have run out of thoughts that actually relate to the problem.

and if so, doesn't that mean that your True(L, x) just returned the false value for an input that was, by your definitions, true?
>
How does that work?
>
It must work the same as Prolog and detect cycles
in its evaluation graph.

Nope. As shown above, Prolog can't handle this logic system.
Yes, perhaps in a logic system fully handlable by Prolog, you can probably define a truth primitive. Since most real work in formal logic isn't in such systems, that is uninteresting.

Deflect again and I will just point out that you have refused to answer because you are just admitting you can't figure out how to fix your broken system.

As I predicted, you are just proving you don't even understand the system that is being talk about, It is just like you claim that you can't show that 2 + 3 = 5 to a person that doesn't understan Numbers.
You can't show the problem of a truth predicate to someone that doesn't understand how logic really works.

>
After all, you have proven that just because you thinkl something is self-evedently true, doesn't mean that it is true, as you sense of self-evedent is just broken.

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
11 May 24	True on the basis of meaning	209	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	208	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	207	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	206	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	205	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	203	Mikko
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	202	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	201	Mikko
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	200	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	183	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	182	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	181	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	180	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	163	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	162	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	161	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	160	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	159	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	158	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	155	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	154	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	153	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	152	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	151	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	150	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	149	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	146	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	145	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	126	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	125	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	124	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	123	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	115	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	114	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	113	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	112	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	111	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	108	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	105	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	104	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	103	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	102	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	101	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	100	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	99	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	98	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	97	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	96	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	95	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	94	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	93	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	92	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	91	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	90	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	85	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	84	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	83	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	82	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	81	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	80	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	79	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Mikko
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Mikko
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	16	Mikko
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski	16	olcott