Re: DD correctly simulated by HH cannot possible halt --- Try to prove otherwise --- x86 DD

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Sujet : Re: DD correctly simulated by HH cannot possible halt --- Try to prove otherwise --- x86 DD
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 04. Jun 2024, 02:56:36
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v3loo4$2uv04$8@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 6/3/24 8:46 AM, olcott wrote:
On 6/3/2024 3:10 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 03.jun.2024 om 05:20 schreef olcott:
On 6/2/2024 10:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/2/24 10:54 PM, olcott wrote:
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR THAT THE INPUT SPECIFIES.
That you did get confused by the Linz text proves that you do
get confused. Previously it looked just like willful deception.
>
Which is, for a Halt Decider, exactly and only the behavior of the Turing Machine the input describes.
>
PERIOD.
>
Anything else is just a LIE.
>
>
You don't seem to understand that you can't just "redefine" the system to meet your desires.
>
>
Deciders compute the mapping FROM THEIR INPUTS.
DD correctly simulated by HH specifies NON-HALTING.
>
No, Running DD(DD) and seeing that it will never, after an unbounded number of steps, indicate it is non-halting.
>
DEFINITION.
>
>
Deciders compute the mapping FROM THEIR INPUTS.
DD correctly simulated by HH specifies NON-HALTING.
>
Right, and the input is a representation of a Turing Machine and its input, whose behavior the decider is to decide on.
>
>
Deciders compute the mapping FROM THEIR INPUTS.
DD correctly simulated by HH specifies NON-HALTING.
>
>
And that is the machine the input describes.
>
ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST A LIE.
>
You can't get away with implicitly saying that you
just don't "believe in" UTMs.
>
I do, and a UTM is DEFINED as a machine that exactly reproduces the behavior of the machine described by its input.
>
>
*If that was true then you prove that this statement is false*
*We can see that the following DD cannot possibly halt when*
*correctly simulated by every HH that can possibly exist*
>
typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C
00       int HH(ptr p, ptr i);
01       int DD(ptr p)
02       {
03         int Halt_Status = HH(p, p);
04         if (Halt_Status)
05           HERE: goto HERE;
06         return Halt_Status;
07       }
>
_DD()
[00001c22] 55         push ebp
[00001c23] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00001c25] 51         push ecx
[00001c26] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001c29] 50         push eax        ; push DD 1c22
[00001c2a] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00001c2d] 51         push ecx        ; push DD 1c22
[00001c2e] e80ff7ffff call 00001342   ; call HH
[00001c33] 83c408     add esp,+08
[00001c36] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
[00001c39] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
[00001c3d] 7402       jz 00001c41
[00001c3f] ebfe       jmp 00001c3f
[00001c41] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
[00001c44] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
[00001c46] 5d         pop ebp
[00001c47] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0038) [00001c47]
>
>
It is clear (both from the C code as from the compiled code) that at the moment that the outer simulator reaches the place where DD calls HH then HH finds *itself* in a 'repeated state'. At that same moment DD is *not* (yet) in a repeated state. (DD may get in a repeated state if the called HH would start a new simulation.) So, the only conclusion is that it is HH that displays repetition. And because of that DD will repeat as well.
>
By using simulation, a new halting problem is introduced, that has nothing to do with the pathological part of DD n lines 04, 05 and 06. This pathological part is not even processed by the simulation.
 DD correctly simulated by HH meets this criteria:
 On 10/13/2022 11:29:23 AM
MIT Professor Michael Sipser agreed this verbatim paragraph is correct
(He has neither reviewed nor agreed to anything else in this paper)
 <Professor Sipser agreed>
If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D until H
correctly determines that its simulated D would never stop running
unless aborted then
 H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D specifies a
non-halting sequence of configurations.
</Professor Sipser agreed>
 Therefore HH(DD,DD) == 0 is correct.
 
Nope.
Until you can show an H that DOES "correctly" (when that includes the requirement of completely) simulate its input and also aborts its simulation (which is a clear contradiction of terms) you can not use your phrase as stated.
You are just proven to be an ignorant pathological liar.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
28 May 24 * D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets253olcott
29 May 24 +* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets214Richard Damon
29 May 24 i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets213olcott
29 May 24 i `* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets212Richard Damon
29 May 24 i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets211olcott
29 May 24 i   +* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets194Richard Damon
29 May 24 i   i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets193olcott
29 May 24 i   i +* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets191Alan Mackenzie
29 May 24 i   i i+- Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets1olcott
29 May 24 i   i i`* Two dozen people were simply wrong189olcott
29 May 24 i   i i +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong3Alan Mackenzie
29 May 24 i   i i i+- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong1olcott
29 May 24 i   i i i`- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong1olcott
30 May 24 i   i i +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong (including Olcott)178Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise177olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise176Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise175olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise174Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise173olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i     `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise172Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i      `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise171olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i       +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise11Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i       i+* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise2olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i       ii`- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise1Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i       i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise8olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i       i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise7Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i       i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise6olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i       i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise5Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i       i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise4olcott
30 May 24 i   i i i       i     `* Re: Olcott was simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise3Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   i i i       i      `* Re: Olcott was simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise2olcott
31 May 24 i   i i i       i       `- Re: Olcott was simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise1Richard Damon
31 May 24 i   i i i       `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise159olcott
31 May 24 i   i i i        +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise157Richard Damon
31 May 24 i   i i i        i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise156olcott
31 May 24 i   i i i        i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise155Richard Damon
31 May 24 i   i i i        i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise154olcott
31 May 24 i   i i i        i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise153Richard Damon
31 May 24 i   i i i        i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise152olcott
31 May 24 i   i i i        i     `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise151Richard Damon
31 May 24 i   i i i        i      `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down150olcott
31 May 24 i   i i i        i       `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down149Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i        `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down148olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i         `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down147Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i          `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down146olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down144Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down143olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down104Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down103olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down101Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down100olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down98Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down97olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down96Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down95olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down94Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down93olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down11Fred. Zwarts
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down10olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down9Fred. Zwarts
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down8olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down7Fred. Zwarts
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down6olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i     `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down5Fred. Zwarts
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i      `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down4olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i       `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down3Fred. Zwarts
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i        `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down2olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i         `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down78Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down77olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down76Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down75olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down73Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down72olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down71Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down70olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down8Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down7olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down6Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down5olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i   +- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1immibis
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down3Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down2olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   i     `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i   `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down61Fred. Zwarts
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i    `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down60olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down50Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down49olcott
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down48Richard Damon
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down47olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down45Richard Damon
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down44olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down43Richard Damon
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down42olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   +- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1wij
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   +- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1wij
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down37Richard Damon
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   i`* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down36olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down35Richard Damon
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   i  `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down34olcott
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   i   +* Re: Olcott is simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down32Richard Damon
3 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   i   `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1Mikko
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   +- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1wij
2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     i   i   `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1Fred. Zwarts
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2 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   i     `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down9Fred. Zwarts
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     i   `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1immibis
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     +- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1immibis
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i i     `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down2joes
1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i i i `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1immibis
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1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           i +* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down26Wasell
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1 Jun 24 i   i i i        i           `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down1immibis
4 Jun 24 i   i i i        `- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise1olcott
30 May 24 i   i i +- Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong1immibis
1 Jun 24 i   i i `* Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong -- Only basis for rebuttal in the last 3 years6olcott
30 May 24 i   i `- Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets1Richard Damon
30 May 24 i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets16olcott
30 May 24 `* Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly halt --- templates and infinite sets --- deciders38olcott

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