Re: vis-viva and vis-motrix

On 10/03/2024 01:51 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

On 10/01/2024 05:49 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

On 09/30/2024 11:48 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:

Am Montag000030, 30.09.2024 um 20:55 schrieb Ross Finlayson:

On 09/29/2024 10:20 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:

Am Samstag000028, 28.09.2024 um 23:57 schrieb Ross Finlayson:

On 09/28/2024 01:57 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:

Am Donnerstag000026, 26.09.2024 um 22:41 schrieb Ross Finlayson:

On 09/26/2024 10:39 AM, The Starmaker wrote:

Ross Finlayson wrote:

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On 09/25/2024 01:55 PM, The Starmaker wrote:

Ross Finlayson wrote:

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On 09/22/2024 11:37 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

On 09/22/2024 09:59 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

On 09/17/2024 11:41 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

On 09/17/2024 04:34 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:
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Does anybody even bother to think about vis-viva versus
vis-
motrix
anymore, with regards to conservation, momentum, inertia,
and
energy,
and potential and impulse energy?

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Of course not. These are obsolete distinctions,
from a time when energy and momentum conservation was not
corectly
understood.
The matter was put to rest by Christiaan Huygens
by showing (for particle collisions)
that momentum conservation and energy conservation
are distinct conservation laws, that are both needed,
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Jan
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Is it usually considered at all that momentum and inertia
change
places with respect to resistance to change of motion and
rest
respectively sort of back and forth in the theory since
antiquity?
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Several times?

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Au contraire, there is yet definition up, in the air, as it
were.
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Find any reference to fictitious forces and for a theory
where the potential fields are what's real and the classical
field's just a projection to a perspective in the middle,
and anything at all to do with the plainly empirical or
tribological with regards to our grandly theoretical,
and one may find that the definitions of "inertia" and
"momentum" with regards to resistance to changes in motion
and resistance to changes in rest, as with regards to
weight and as with regards to heft, have rotated each
few hundred years, as with regards to the great schism
whence Newton's vis-motrix, as with regards to the
vis-insita
and Leibnitz' vis-viva, as what for example can be read into
from the Wikipedia on conservation of _energy_ and
conservation
of _momentum_ up to today, where for example, the
"infinitely- many
higher orders of theoretical acceleration are both formally
non-zero and vanishing" because "zero meters/second
equals infinity seconds/meter".
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So, for a true centrifugal, and quite all about the
derivative
and anti-derivative as with regards to momentum, inertia,
and kinetic energy, in a theory what's of course
sum-of-histories
sum-of-potentials with least action and gradient, or sum-of-
potentials,
it is so that the various under-defined concepts of the
plain
laws
of after Newton, are as yet un-defined, and there are a
variety
of considerations as with regards to the multiplicities, or
these singularities, and the reciprocities, of these
projections.
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So, some of these considerations as since "Mediaeval Times",
help reflect that Einstein's not alone in his, 'attack on
Newton'.
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Moment and Motion:  a story of momentum
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-Gh-
bBb7M&list=PLb7rLSBiE7F4eHy5vT61UYFR7_BIhwcOY
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Theories and principles, momentum and sum-of-histories
sum-of-potentials, conservation, momentum and inertia
and energy, fields and forces, Einstein's mechanics,
conservation of energy and conservation of momentum,
potential and fictitious and causal and virtual, mv, mv^2,
ordinary and extra-ordinary in the differential and inverses,
the standard curriculum and the super-standard, momentum
in definition, classical exposition, Bayes rule and a law of
large
numbers, law(s) of large numbers and not-Bayesian
expectations,
numerical methods in derivations, uniqueness results later
distinctness results, law(s) of large numbers and continuity,
complete and replete, induction and limits, partials and
limits,
the paleo-classical, platforms and planks, mass and weight
and heft, gravitational force and g-forces, measure and
matching measure, relativity and a difference between
rest and motion, heft, resistance to gravity, ideals and
billiard mechanics, wider ideals, Wallis and Huygens,
Nayfeh's nonlinear oscillations, addition of vectors,
observables and ideals, DesCartes' and Kelvin's vortices,
black holes and white holes, waves and optics, Euler, both
vis-motrix and vis-viva, d'Alembert's principle, Lagrange,
potential as integral over space, Maupertuis and Gauss
and least action and least constraint, Hamilton,
Hamiltonians and Bayesians, Jacobi, Navier and Stokes
and Cauchy and Saint Venant and Maxwell, statistical
mechanics and entropy and least action, ideal and real,
mechanical reduction and severe abstraction, ions and
fields and field theory, wave mechanics and virtual
particles,
ideals and the ideal, the classical and monistic holism,
paleo-
nouveau.
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Much like the theories of "fall", "shadow", or
"push" gravity, or the "shadow" or "umbral"
gravity and for theories of real supergravity,
as after Fatio and LeSage, as of theories of
"pull" or "suck" gravity of Newton and the
"rubber-sheet" or "down" gravity of Einstein,
then the theories of vortices like DesCartes
and Kelvin, and others, help reflect on the
rectilinear and curvilinear, and flat and round,
as with regards to deconstructive accounts of
usual unstated assumptions and the severe
abstraction and mechanical reduction, in as
with regards to modern theories of mechanics.
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Zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter.
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You know, zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter,
and, any change of anything in motion has associated the
infinitely-many higher orders of acceleration, and,
it's rather underdefined and even undefined yet very
obviously clearly is an aspect of the mathematical model,
that Galileo's and Newton's laws of motion, sort of are
only a "principal branch" as it were, and, don't quite suffice.
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Of course anything that would add infinitely-many higher
orders of acceleration mathematically to the theory,
of mechanics, the theory, would have to result being
exactly being the same as Galilean and Newtonian,
"in the limit", and for example with regards to
Lorentzians and these kinds of things.
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It's sort of similar with adding more and better
infinities and infinitesimals to mathematics.
The continuous dynamics of continuous motion
though and its mechanics, is a few layers above
a plain concept of the continuum, as with regards
to something like a strong mathematical platonism's
mathematical universe, being that making advances
in physics involves making advances in mathematics.
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Which pretty much means digging up and revisiting
the "severe abstraction" the "mechanical reduction",
quite all along the way: paleo-classical, super-classical.

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"zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter"????
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Do you guys even have any idea whats yous talkings abouts?
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'infinity' has no time and cannot be measured. So, that means
there
are
no 'seconds' in "infinity", and no meter/meters/inches in
"infinity'!
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In "infinity" there are no meters or seconds.
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Where do you guys get your information from? Albert Einstein??
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"Moment and Motion:  infinity and large numbers"

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Oh i see, yous people live in a Mandelbox universe...
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i wasn't refering to yours 'numbers' universe..
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i was refering to the real universe.
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Einstein said he wasn't sure if the universe is infinite or not..
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but I'm sure the universe is infinite...just not the one you're
in...only it's surrounding universe that yous are expanding in.
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sorry to bust your bubble.
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Actually, there's an idea that one way to conceive
the universe, is, as a mathematical continuum, that
these days that's what's called "holograph", or "hologram",
the idea that one mathematical continuum is big enough
to have a number, for each thing, and relation in things.
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Then these philosophically are called "plastic numbers,
metal numbers, concrete numbers".
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Then, for example, Euclidean space, and, maybe not
Minkowski space, have it that there's only a ray
of time, or 3 + 1/2, with three space dimensions,
rolling and curled up, in the infinities and the
infinitesimals, one continuum.
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It might even be reasonable to explain sort of why
there are three dimensions in a mathematical universe
of the space-like, simply courtesy properties of numbers,
because "least action and a gradient" is about the
easiest way to say "it is what it is, and it will
be what it will be".

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I had the idea, that this picture is actually correct and written
kind
of 'book' about this concept.
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(you find it here:
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https://docs.google.com/presentation/
d/1Ur3_giuk2l439fxUa8QHX4wTDxBEaM6lOlgVUa0cFU4/edit?usp=sharing
)
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The idea is called 'structured spacetime'.
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The spacetime of GR is assumed to exist and being a real physical
entity.
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It is a continuum build from 'pointlike elements'.
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These 'elements' are something you may call 'points with features'.
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The math behind it is quite unusal, but already known and not
particularily difficult.
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It is so called 'Pauli algebra' applied to so called 'bi-quaternions
(aka 'complex four-vectors').
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...
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TH
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It kind of is, kind of isn't.
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A "tetrad" in physics helps fill out complementary duals,
and, their complementary duals, so that notions of
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oscillation and restitution
dissipation and attenuation
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make for
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tendencies and propensities
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what's the consistitutive
and reconstitutive and deconstitutive,
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why three legs is enough to hold up the table,
then for something on it.
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So, tetrads like
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proton electron neutron photon,
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mass charge light-speed neutron-lifetime
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strong+gravity electromagnetic electro-weak optical-weak
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help establish usual sorts of setups like field theory,
models of forces, and pretty much for theories where
the potential fields are the real field, for example
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3 + 1 dimensions, or 3 + 1/2 "space and a ray of time",
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then there's a tetrad
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point projection perspective space
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as with regards to
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point local global total.

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We need 'three axes of space and one scalar for time' at a single
point
only.
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Moving to another point would require the same stuff, but not the same
axes!
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Iow: the (imaginary) axis of time does not need to be parallel
throughout the entire universe!
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Actually time MUST be local and measures some sort of rythm of
causality.
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Other places can have actually other timelines and actually a local
time, which runs backwards from our perspective.
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This is important, because that would allow to understand certain
behaviours of nature.
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This would result in a double tetrahedron, where forward flowing time
with three real axes and a backwards flow time with the axes of
kind of
world behind the mirror would overlap to a double tetrahedron.
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Since we belong to these results, too, we can only live in our own
world
and cannot look behind that mirror.
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 From this we have drawn the conclusion, that our own world is all
that
would exist.
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But that is just an optical illusion and as wrong as 'flat Earth'.
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But we know already, that things can leave our own 'world' and
disappear
into black holes or pop out of nothing in 'white holes'.
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Then, this being usually a field theory, there's
that the theory is always "three space dimensions",
and, that being some "real Euclidean space".
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People make a lot of the complex, and also the
hyper-complex like geometric algebras, then
there are also approaches like Kodaira and Zariski,
that include without, that the same sorts of setups
of rotations and reflections and analyticity with
respect to a "diagram", have that there are all sorts
of diagrams, considered mathematical models.
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Well, my own guess was a clifford algebra with the name CL_3, also
known
as 'Pauli algebra'.
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This uses 'bi-quaternions' and that shall be symbolised by a double
tetrahedron (because of the eight components of this construct).
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Then the idea that there is a numerical resource,
a continuum, that just sort of naturally results
three dimensions and a ray of time, and also then
as with regards to tetrads and information in
the space-time, the "Space-Time", with its contents,
is a thing actually looking to equip a mathematical
model as being a resource and book-kept in this way,
about deriving most of the theory from least,
and that that's a very principled approach.
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'Ray of time' is a dangerous concept.
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Time is depicted as a ray, but usually time is an imaginary
pseudoscalar.
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TH
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It's matters of perspective and projection.
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The "time parity" has never been falsified in physics,
so there's never any real "negative time" in physics
as a quantity, so, it's considered a real quantity.
When the perspective/projection is unduly rigid instead
of optical, geometric instead of optical, then it lets out,
yet, that is a limitation of the mathematical model not
an ever falsified aspect of the physical model.

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'negative time' is impossible.
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You need to treet time 'relative'.
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This means:
time is positive everywhere
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Where clocks tick at the same rate and you are able to use the same kind
of clocks, that is what I call 'time domain'.
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This is on planet Earth a spherical shell around the planet of equal
hight.
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this is the set of points, sharing the same (positive!) time.
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Now other time domains may exist, where time there is locally positive,
while in our view negative.
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This is possible, because the very word 'negative' makes sense only for
us as remote observers, while locally time must be positive.
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Besides of this, we have the effects of 'anti-symmetry' of spacetime.
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This causes a 'mirror world', which exists invisble 'behind the mirror'.
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There time runs backwards from our perspective as well as our time
there.
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This is similar to a Moebius strip, which has only one side, but with
two directions pointing 'up' locally.
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TH
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It's interesting, though, I encourage you.
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It's like the other day, there was an article, and it purported
"negative time demonstrated", which of course would violate causality,
then it looks like it's as of an Aspect-type or Aspect-like experiment,
where Alain Aspect, makes an articulated beam array, in the photonic,
what results that an information arrives as "at once" and, "zero time",
as it were, that "information is free, yet metered", that though
yet still not reflecting, "negative time". Aspect's though
does _not_ have "negative time".
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Then it's like looking at something like that, it's like,
"well in our model, there's never zero time, so, the way
we see what according to that coherent frame is zero time,
which in our theory isn't coherent and so yet a time difference
the same experiment, results it must be _negative time_".
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And it's like, "I get what you mean that's not coherent."
It's like "you don't even have the words in your theory
for zero time thusly it bleeds into your numbers negative".
Of course it never went _backwards_ in time and never
violated what most-all have as causality or otherwise
went about making false statements about physics.
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It's almost a universal consideration that
physics is a universal consideration, with regards
to that of course it's arbitrarily un-falsifiable any
matters of "higher-orders of organization", it's also
immaterial, as "the universal consideration is a universal
consideration".
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Then, these ideas of symmetry, what result the notions of
mirrors and the reflection and incidence of reflection in
what results the optical in the optical, and also about
the vorticial that is the non-linear part of "equal and
opposite reaction", the law of physics, then makes for
that indeed invariance of conservation law and Noether's
theorem about that being an abstract what we call continuum
law or continuity law most usually, though some most usually
call symmetries and others conservations and others invariances,
that here it's that conservation laws are continuity laws,
then that what can result as symmetry-flex, is otherwise
for the regularities of symmetries, invariances, conservation.
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Moebius is a key enrichment, as with regards to matters
of projective and perspective, those equipping geometry
with a context and surrounds.
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The "information is free, if metered" bit reflects on that
usually the idea is that according to the invariances under
the theories of relativity, that information can never go
faster than c, which given the L-principle is a universal
constant. So, the idea is that in the space-frame terms,
actually the space-frame can be contrived, so that what
happens, there's established any linearity and a guide-lode
at the center, then that the guide-lode's motion, also
advises the motion twice as far away.
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This is that "information is fundamentally free",
"if metered", and specifically by the carriage
of light otherwise, and even "asymptotically free".
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The new "negative time" bit is described as a sort
of condensed-matter physics thing where there's
just sort of some ultra-cold rubidium which has its
own sort of super-fluid regime with regards to
condensed-matter physics, so anyways it's just
shooting photons through that, then saying that
the photons arrive out the other side at light
speed yet also appear to displace or "be absorbed",
where that's assigning something that's not so.
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Nothing happens faster than "light speed" there
the photons is what's not going on.
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That's an altogether different concept of course
that there's a clock hypothesis and indeed that
out past c there's c_g and it reflects the Newtonian
and gravitational waves have immediate components
and gravitational waves have luminous components.
Of course the most modern ephemeris about Earth
is Parameterized Post-Newtonian where c_g > c,
and of course the force of gravity always points
at the source not the image, and GR is in front of SR,
and SR has that light is fleeting, and SR's spacial is local,
and so on, here according to JPL and Einstein on Einstein.
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So, that said, then, it is what it is, then I was reading
Franklin's "No Easy Answers ..." then about the
energy-dependence and the Kaon phase and this,
then got into reading about Fujii then Fischbach,
about Eotvos, and now I'm reading Fischbach about
"The Fifth Force: A Personal History", and quite about
how it started that Eotvos really was about disproving
Galileo with respect to material properties and gravity,
and with respect to "active and passive gravitational mass",
and about how Eotvos sort of standardizes platinum
for mass kind of like iron is standardized for isotopes,
while that both Galileo's experiment and "the law of
gravitation" and also the equivalence principle of GR,
are sort of the same thing, then as with regards to
the behavior of vis-viva as active and vis-motrix as
passive, then those being different.
This article Mustaparta's "Active and passive mass
in classical physics" is a nice survey, it mentions
Bondi of Steady-State theory and here about
when "passive and active are not equal", that of
course it's usual that they are.
Such systems can be contrived pretty readily,
basically invoking springs, or as with regards
to stores that are entirely configuration in kinetics,
yet as in the ongoing there's even simple reflection
on things like observing that spinning balls loft longer,
simply and including ignoring the rest of the
theoretical Magnus effect or including the rest
of the measured Magnus effect.
Anyways in times like this with Milgrom and MOND
then these sorts ideas that there's plenty not-going-on
in lots of terms in the classical mechanical sector,
is for helping explain about zero m/s = infinity s/m,
and vice-versa, yet while there are models where
electron-physics is a teeter-totter off hydrogen mass,
there are as well the low-energy and continuous muon decay,
that equipping mechanics affects most all models
whence models of fluids.
Thusly these ideas of "rest exchange momentum"
help rehabilitate the language from the derivation,
the derivation since at least when Newton and Leibniz
are still arguing about vis-motrix and vis-viva and it
was left sitting around as that, DesCartes' and Kelvin's
vortices are still as general as vector fields if plainly
less derived as with regards to where there are models
of nonlinear oscillations that in their own milieu are as closed,
gets into that indeed the notions of vis viva, motrix, insita
are each a thing, then for that "modern theories of quantum
supergravity" are this sort of retro "ultramundance" yet
furthermore super "fall gravity", at least results staying
in the tetrad of forces, because fields are all infinite and
so they all go together, i.e. that each of the four forces'
fields all inhabit the same continuous manifold,
has that, ..., logically it must sort of so follow,
that at least so logically it must follow.