Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 20. May 2024, 01:30:45

Autres entêtes

Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v2e236$1g2n8$5@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird

On 5/19/24 4:12 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/19/2024 12:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/19/24 9:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>
True(L,x) is always a truth bearer.
when x is defined as True(L,x) then x is not a truth bearer.
>
So, x being DEFINED to be a certain sentence doesn't make x to have the same meaning as the sentence itself?
>
What does it mean to define a name to a given sentence, if not that such a name referes to exactly that sentence?
>
p = ~True(L,p) // p is not a truth bearer because its refers to itself

Then ~True(L,p) can't be a truth beared as they are the SAME STATEMENT, just using different "names".
Just like (with context) YOU can be refered to a PO, Peter, Peter Olcott or Olcott, and all the reference get to the exact same entity, so any "name" for the express

True(L,p) is false
True(L,~p) is false

So since True(L, p) is false, then ~True(L, p) is true.

~True(True(L,p)) is true and is referring to the p that refers
to itself it is not referring to its own self.
*ONE LEVEL OF INDIRECT REFERENCE MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE*

Why add the indirection? p is the NAME of the statement, which means exactly the same thing as the statement itself.
Is the definition of an English word one level LESS of indirection than the word itself?
I don't think you understand what it means to define something.
"Definition by example" is worse than "Proof by example", at least proof by example can be correct if the assertion is that there exists, and not for all.
A level of indirection:
p: "This sentence is true", which is exactly the same as "p is true" since "this sentence" IS p
p1: The sentence p is true"
THAT is a level of indirection, as p1 refers to a sentence that isn't itself.

>
~True(L,x) is always a truth bearer.
when x is defined as ~True(L,x) then x is not a truth bearer.
>
Again, what does "Defined as" mean to you?
>
x := y means x is defined to be another name for y
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logic_symbols

So, p := ~True(L, p) means p is just another name, and thus another way to reference

LP := ~True(L,LP)
means ~True(~True(~True(~True(~True(...)))))

No, it to be what you are meaning, it would be:
LP := ~True(L, LP)
LP := ~True(L, ~True(L, LP))
LP := ~True(L, ~True(L, ~True(L, LP)))
...
And each of these COULD possible be described as adding a level of indirection, as we are affecting how many layers we are applying of the definition.

It is the common convention to encode self-reference incorrectly.
LP ↔ ~True(L, LP)
ϕ(x) there is a sentence ψ such that S ⊢ ψ ↔ ϕ⟨ψ⟩.
The sentence ψ is of course not self-referential in a
strict sense, but mathematically it behaves like one.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/self-reference/
<big snip>
*Usenet Article Lookup*
http://al.howardknight.net/ chops off long posts
Since we can no longer use Google Groups to link to recent posts.

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
11 May 24	True on the basis of meaning	156	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	155	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	154	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	153	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	152	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	150	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	149	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	139	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	138	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	137	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	136	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	127	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	126	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	125	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	124	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	123	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	122	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	119	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	118	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	117	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	116	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	115	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	114	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	113	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	wij
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	89	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	88	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	78	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	77	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	76	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	75	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	74	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	73	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	72	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	71	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	68	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	67	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	66	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	65	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	64	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	59	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	58	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	57	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	56	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	55	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	54	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	53	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	50	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	49	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	48	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	47	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	46	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	45	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	44	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	43	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	42	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	14	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	12	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	11	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	10	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	26	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	8	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	9	Mikko