Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)

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Sujet : Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 14. Jun 2024, 13:39:47
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v4ha63$3v16r$2@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 6/14/24 12:13 AM, olcott wrote:
On 6/13/2024 10:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/13/24 11:14 PM, olcott wrote:
On 6/13/2024 10:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/13/24 9:39 PM, olcott wrote:
On 6/13/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/13/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>
It is contingent upon you to show the exact steps of how H computes
the mapping from the x86 machine language finite string input to
H(D,D) using the finite string transformation rules specified by
the semantics of the x86 programming language that reaches the
behavior of the directly executed D(D)
>
>
Why? I don't claim it can.
>
>
That means that H cannot even be asked the question:
"Does D halt on its input?"
>
WHy not? After all, H does what it does, the PERSON we ask is the programmer.
>
>
*When H and D have a pathological relationship to each other*
There is no way to encode any H such that it can be asked:
Does D(D) halt?
>
Which just pproves that Halting is non-computable.
>
 No it is more than that.
H cannot even be asked the question:
Does D(D) halt?
No, you just don't understand the proper meaning of "ask" when applied to a deterministic entity.

 You already admitted the basis for this.
No, that is something different.

 
You keep on doing that, Making claims that show the truth of the statement you are trying to disprove.
The fact you don't undrstand that, just show how little you understand what you are saying.
>
>
You must see this from the POV of H or you won't get it.
H cannot read your theory of computation textbooks, it
only knows what it directly sees, its actual input.
>
But H doesn't HAVE a "poimt of view".
>
 When H is a simulating halt decider you can't even ask it
about the behavior of D(D). You already said that it cannot
map its input to the behavior of D(D). That means that you
cannot ask H(D,D) about the behavior of D(D).
OF course you can, becaue, BY DEFIINITION, that is the ONLY thing it does with its inputs.

 What seems to me to be the world's leading termination
analyzer symbolically executes its transformed input.
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-030-99527-0_21.pdf
 It takes C programs and translates them into something like
generic assembly language and then symbolically executes them
to form a directed graph of their behavior. x86utm and HH do
something similar in a much more limited fashion.
And note, it only gives difinitive answers for SOME input.

 
H is just a "mechanical" computation. It is a rote algorithm that does what it has been told to do.
>
 H cannot be asked the question Does DD(D) halt?
There is no way to encode that. You already admitted
this when you said the finite string input to H(D,D)
cannot be mapped to the behavior of D(D).
It is every time it is given an input, at least if H is a halt decider.
That is what halt deciders (if they exist) do.

 
It really seems likem you just don't understand the concept of deterministic automatons, and Willful beings as being different.
>
Which just shows how ignorant you are about what you talk about.
>
 The issue is that you don't understand truthmaker theory.
You can not simply correctly wave your hands to get H to know
what question is being asked.
No, YOU don't understand Truth.

 
>
If there is no possible way for H to transform its input
into the behavior of D(D) then H cannot be asked about
the behavior of D(D).
>
>
No, it says it can't do it, not that it can't be asked to do it.
>
 It can't even be asked. You said that yourself.
The input to H(D,D) cannot be transformed into
the behavior of D(D).
>
No, we can't make an arbitrary problem solver, since we can show there are unsolvable problems.
Nothing says we can't encode the Halting Question into an input. What can't be done it create a program that gives the right answer for all such inputs.
You, like normal, don't understand your requirements and capabilities.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
10 Jun 24 * Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---373olcott
10 Jun 24 +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---10joes
10 Jun 24 i+* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---4Mikko
10 Jun 24 ii`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---3olcott
11 Jun 24 ii `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---2Mikko
11 Jun 24 ii  `- Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten1olcott
10 Jun 24 i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---5olcott
10 Jun 24 i `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---4joes
10 Jun 24 i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---3olcott
10 Jun 24 i   `* Re: D simulated by H unproved for THREE YEARS ---2joes
10 Jun 24 i    `- Re: D simulated by H unproved for THREE YEARS ---1olcott
10 Jun 24 `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS ---362Richard Damon
11 Jun 24  `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- Richard admits his error361olcott
11 Jun 24   `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- Richard admits his error360Richard Damon
11 Jun 24    `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- Richard admits his error359olcott
11 Jun 24     `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- Richard admits his error358Richard Damon
11 Jun 24      `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten357olcott
12 Jun 24       +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten355Richard Damon
12 Jun 24       i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten354olcott
12 Jun 24       i +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten302Python
12 Jun 24       i i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten301olcott
12 Jun 24       i i `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten300Richard Damon
12 Jun 24       i i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten299olcott
12 Jun 24       i i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten298Richard Damon
12 Jun 24       i i    `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules297olcott
13 Jun 24       i i     `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules296Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i      `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules295olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules288Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules287olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules285Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules284olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules283Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules282olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules281Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i i    `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules280olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules274Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules273olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     i `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules272Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules271olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules270Richard Damon
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     i    `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules269olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     i     +- Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules1joes
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i     `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules267Richard Damon
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      +* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules236olcott
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i`* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules235Richard Damon
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i `* H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)234olcott
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  +* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)231Richard Damon
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i`* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)230olcott
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)229Richard Damon
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)228olcott
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   +* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)169joes
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i`* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)168olcott
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i +- Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)1Richard Damon
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)166joes
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i  +* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)2olcott
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i  i`- Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)1Richard Damon
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)163Mikko
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i   `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)162olcott
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i    +- Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)1Richard Damon
16 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i    `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)160Mikko
16 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i     `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)159olcott
17 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i      `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)158Mikko
17 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i       `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)157olcott
18 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i        `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)156Mikko
18 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i         `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)155olcott
18 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i          `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)154Mikko
18 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i           `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)153olcott
18 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i            `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)152Mikko
18 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i             `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)151olcott
19 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i              `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)150Mikko
19 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i               `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)149olcott
20 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)148Mikko
20 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                 `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)147olcott
20 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)146Mikko
20 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                   `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)145olcott
20 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    +* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)5joes
20 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i`* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)4olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)3Fred. Zwarts
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)2olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i   `- Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)1Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    +* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)56Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i`* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)55olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)54Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply53olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i   `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply52Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i    `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply51olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i     `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply50Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      +* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply47olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i`* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply46Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply45olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply44Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i   `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply43olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i    `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply42Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i     `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply41olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i      `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply40Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i       `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply39olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i        `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply38Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i         `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply37olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i          `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply36Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i           `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply35olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      i            `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply34Richard Damon
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    i      `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Boilerplate Reply2olcott
21 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   i                    `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)83Mikko
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  i   `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)58Richard Damon
14 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      i  `* Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)2joes
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      +* H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 ---ignoring all other replies12olcott
15 Jun 24       i i       i i     i      `* H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES18olcott
13 Jun 24       i i       i i     `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules5joes
13 Jun 24       i i       i `- Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules1joes
13 Jun 24       i i       `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- finite string transformation rules6joes
12 Jun 24       i `* Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten51Richard Damon
12 Jun 24       `- Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten1Fred. Zwarts

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