Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 17. May 2024, 03:54:51

Autres entêtes

Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v26gtr$18ad7$13@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird

On 5/16/24 10:44 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/16/2024 9:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/16/24 9:59 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/16/2024 6:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/16/24 12:44 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 10:17 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>
Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) is BY DEFINITION a truth bearer, as True must return a Truth Value for all inputs, and ~ a truth valus is always the other truth value.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive p?
>
On 5/15/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> Which has NOTHING to do with the problem with True(L, p)
> being true when p is defined in L as ~True(L, p)
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
No, I said that because there is not path to p, it would need to be false, but that was based on the assumption that it could exist.
>
>
No, so True(L, p) is false
and thus ~True(L, p) is true.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>
>
On 5/15/2024 7:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> Which has NOTHING to do with the above,
> as we never refered to False(L,p).
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
Right, but that has nothing to do with the problem with True(L, p) being false, because, since p in L is ~True(L, p) so that make True(L, ~false) which is True(L, true) false, which is incorrrect.
>
>
No, so False(L, p) is false,
>
>
Please try and keep these two thoughts together at the same time
*I need to make another point that depends on both of them*
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
>
>
right, by your definitions, True(L, p) is False, but that means that True(L, true) is false, so your system is broken.
>
>
You understand that True(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand that False(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand this means that "a fish" is neither True
nor false in English.
>
You understand that the actual Liar Paradox is neither true
nor false *THIS IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE: Good Job*
>
True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
Is saying the same thing that you already know.
>
You get stuck when we formalize: "This sentence is not true"
as "p defined as ~True(L, p)", yet the formalized sentence has
the exact same semantics as the English one.
>
>
No, YOU get stuck when you can't figure out how to make True(L, p) with p defined in L as ~True(L, p) work. If it IS false, then the resulting comclusion is that True(L, true) is false, whicn means your system is broken.
>
>
True(L, true) is false
False(L, true) is false
>
This is the Truth Teller Paradox
and is rejected as not a truth bearer.
>
>
>
No True(L, true) must be TRUE by definiition.
>
We could say that "kittens are fifteen story office buildings"
is true by definition and we would be wrong.
>
But the fundamental definition of true makes it true.
*True by definition must actually be true*
*True by definition must actually be true*
*True by definition must actually be true*

So why did you argue that True(L, true) shouldn't be just true?
Aren't you just being inconsistant now

>
"True(L, true)" lacks a truth object that it is true about.
A sentence cannot correctly be true about being true...
It has to be true about something other than itself.
>
true IS the fundamental truth object.
>
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*

No, it is the VALUE of the result of this algorithm, which, BY DEFINITION, is a truth value.

*The grounding of a truth-bearer to its truthmaker*
True(L,x) returns true when x is derived from a set of truth preserving operations from finite string expressions of language that have been stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean true. False(L,x) is defined as True(L,~x). Copyright 2022 PL Olcott

Which, by your claim makes True(L, p) false, but that makes p to be defined as ~false, which is true, so you are claiming True(L, true) can be false.

It isn't a "sentence" it is a truth value.
>
You are just showing you don't actually understand how logic works.
>
>
"This sentence has five words."
Is true about the number of words that it has.
True(English, "This sentence has five words.") is true
>
"a sentence may fail to make a statement if it is
paradoxical or ungrounded."
>
>
So, you thing truth is just paradoxical or ungrounded?
>
That is how Kripke defined not a truth-bearer.
I specified what grounding means above and previously.
*Outline of a Theory of Truth --- Saul Kripke*
https://www.impan.pl/~kz/truthseminar/Kripke_Outline.pdf

So, are you agreeing that True(L, true) needs to be true?
and thus can't be false?
and thus True(L, p) where p is a statement that is true must be true, and not false.
Even if you first said it must be false?
And thus your system is shown inconsistant!!
You need to resolve this or I will be able to just remind you that you have asserted conditions that make your logic inconsistant and can't refute the logic that shows that.

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	113	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	wij
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	89	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	88	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	78	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	77	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	76	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	75	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	74	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	73	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	72	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	71	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	68	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	67	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	66	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	65	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	64	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	59	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	58	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	57	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	56	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	55	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	54	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	53	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	50	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	49	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	48	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	47	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	46	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	45	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	44	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	43	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	42	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	14	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	12	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	11	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	10	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	9	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	8	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	7	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	6	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
22 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	26	olcott
22 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	25	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	24	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	23	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	21	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	6	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	5	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	4	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	3	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	2	olcott
24 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	1	Richard Damon
25 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	14	olcott
27 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	13	olcott
27 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	12	olcott
28 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	11	olcott
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	10	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	1	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott