Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT

Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 30. May 2024, 00:47:18

Autres entêtes

Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v38eq6$2foi0$2@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird

On 5/29/24 10:00 AM, olcott wrote:

On 5/29/2024 6:31 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/28/24 11:54 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/28/2024 10:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/28/24 10:39 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/28/2024 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/28/24 10:59 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/28/2024 1:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-27 14:34:14 +0000, olcott said:
>
?- LP = not(true(LP)).
LP = not(true(LP)).
>
?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
false.
>
In other words Prolog has detected a cycle in the directed graph of the
evaluation sequence of the structure of the Liar Paradox. Experts seem
to think that Prolog is taking "not" and "true" as meaningless and is
only evaluating the structure of the expression.
>
The words "not" and "true" of Prolog are meaningful in some contexts
but not above. The word "true" is meaningful only when it has no arguments.
>
>
That Prolog construes any expression having the same structure as the
Liar Paradox as having a cycle in the directed graph of its evaluation
sequence already completely proves my point. In other words Prolog
is saying that there is something wrong with the expression and it must
be rejected.
>
But Prolog doesn't support powerful enough logic to handle the system like Tarski and Godel are talking about.
>
The fact that Prolog just rejects it shows that.
>
>
Your ignorance is no excuse.
>
What ignorance?
>
>
The fact that you assert that you know the underlying details of
https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2
without even glancing at the documentation and write-up in Clocksin and
Mellish seems to be willful ignorance.
>
What makes you think that? I understand how Prolog works, and why it only models relatively simple logic systems, because it just can't handle the higher order logical primitives. It can't even handle full first order logic.
>
Your explanation of
https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2
was ridiculous.

I didn't say anything about except that it Prolog only handles a simple set of logic forms. The makers of Proog freely admit that, so it isn't disparaging of them. It is a good tool for the problems it was designed for, and (as most tools) lousy at things that are outside its design parameters.
A bit like using a fine screwdriver to try to cut your lumber.

BEGIN:(Clocksin & Mellish 2003:254)
Finally, a note about how Prolog matching sometimes differs from the unification used in Resolution. Most Prolog systems will allow you to satisfy goals like:
    equal(X, X).
    ?- equal(foo(Y), Y).
that is, they will allow you to match a term against an uninstantiated
subterm of itself. In this example, foo(Y) is matched against Y, which
appears within it. As a result, Y will stand for foo(Y), which is
foo(foo(Y)) (because of what Y stands for), which is foo(foo(foo(Y))),
and so on. So Y ends up standing for some kind of infinite structure.
Note that, whereas they may allow you to construct something like this,
most Prolog systems will not be able to write it out at the end.
According to the formal definition of Unification, this kind of
“infinite term” should never come to exist. Thus Prolog systems that
allow a term to match an uninstantiated subterm of itself do not act
correctly as Resolution theorem provers. In order to make them do so, we
would have to add a check that a variable cannot be instantiated to
something containing itself. Such a check, an occurs check, would be
straightforward to implement, but would slow down the execution of
Prolog programs considerably. Since it would only affect very few
programs, most implementors have simply left it out 1.
   1 The Prolog standard states that the result is undefined if a Prolog
    system attempts to match a term against an uninstantiated subterm of
    itself, which means that programs which cause tills to happen will
    not be portable. A portable program should ensure that wherever an
    occurs check might be applicable the built-in predicate
    unify_with_occurs_check/2 is used explicitly instead of the normal
    unification operation of the Prolog implementation. As its
    name suggests, this predicate acts like =/2 except that it fails if
    an occurs check detects an illegal attempt to instantiate a variable.
END:(Clocksin & Mellish 2003:254)
Clocksin, W.F. and Mellish, C.S. 2003. Programming in Prolog Using the ISO Standard Fifth Edition, 254. Berlin Heidelberg: Springer-Verlag.

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Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	113	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	wij
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	89	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	88	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	78	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	77	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	76	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	75	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	74	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	73	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	72	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	71	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	68	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	67	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	66	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	65	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	64	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	59	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	58	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	57	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	56	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	55	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	54	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	53	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	50	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	49	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	48	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	47	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	46	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	45	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	44	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	43	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	42	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	14	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	12	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	11	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	10	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	9	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	8	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	7	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	6	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
22 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	26	olcott
22 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	25	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	24	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	23	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	21	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	6	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	5	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	4	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	3	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	2	olcott
24 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	1	Richard Damon
25 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	14	olcott
27 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	13	olcott
27 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	12	olcott
28 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	11	olcott
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	10	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	1	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott