Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies

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Sujet : Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 20. Jun 2024, 15:58:43
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v51g33$2kbbe$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 6/20/2024 6:33 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/19/24 10:25 PM, olcott wrote:
On 6/19/2024 9:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/19/24 10:02 PM, olcott wrote:
On 6/19/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/19/24 8:44 PM, olcott wrote:
On 6/19/2024 7:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/19/24 9:00 AM, olcott wrote:
On 6/19/2024 3:08 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jun.2024 om 18:26 schreef olcott:
On 6/18/2024 10:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jun.2024 om 17:33 schreef olcott:
On 6/18/2024 10:20 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>
It is a verified fact that serious C people have recently
agreed to the following verbatim statement in the C group.
>
http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cv4pg5p%24morv%241%40raubtier-asyl.eternal-september.org%3E+
>
You either lack this degree of skill in C or are only
interested in playing head games.
>
I have seen the response. It was most certainly not a serious reply.
But you know apparently to little of C to understand that.
Probably, because you are unable to escape from rebuttal mode, even if the truth is obvious.
>
>
I have known C since K&R was the standard and met
Bjarne Stroustrup when he came to our university
to promote his new C++ programming language.
>
*You seem to be willfully ignorant*
>
It was your own proof that showed that in
>
        int main()
        {
          return H(main);
        }
>
>
main halts, whereas H reported non-halting. So, it you were honest you would stop claiming that H is correct.
>
>
That is merely a more difficult to understand version of this
same pathological relationship.
>
int main()
{
   Output("Input_Halts = ", HH0(main));
}
>
_main()
[000020c2] 55         push ebp
[000020c3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
[000020cf] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000020d2] 50         push eax
[000020d3] 6843070000 push 00000743
[000020d8] e885e6ffff call 00000762
[000020dd] 83c408     add esp,+08
[000020e0] eb04       jmp 000020e6
[000020e2] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000020e4] eb02       jmp 000020e8
[000020e6] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000020e8] 5d         pop ebp
[000020e9] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0040) [000020e9]
>
  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
[000020c2][001036c3][00000000] 55         push ebp
[000020c3][001036c3][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5][001036bf][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca][001036bb][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
New slave_stack at:103767
>
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11376f
[000020c2][0011375f][00113763] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
[000020c3][0011375f][00113763] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5][0011375b][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca][00113757][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
New slave_stack at:14e18f
[000020c2][0015e187][0015e18b] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
[000020c3][0015e187][0015e18b] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000020c5][0015e183][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
[000020ca][0015e17f][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
[000020cf][001036c3][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000020d2][001036bf][00000000] 50         push eax
[000020d3][001036bb][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743
[000020d8][001036bb][00000743] e885e6ffff call 00000762
Input_Halts = 0
[000020dd][001036c3][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
[000020e0][001036c3][00000000] eb04       jmp 000020e6
[000020e6][001036c3][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000020e8][001036c7][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
[000020e9][001036cb][00000000] c3         ret           ; exit main
Number of Instructions Executed(10070) == 150 Pages
>
>
It is easier to understand because a print statement was added.
You proved that it halts, but H0 reports non-halting.
So, it produces a false negative.
So, now it has been proved that H, H0, etc produce false negatives, when used to determine halting behaviour, please, stop to call them halt-deciders, or termination-deciders.
They might be "simulation deciders". When returning true, the simulation was correct, when false, the full simulation was not possible.
>
I don't want to discuss your screwy example because I
can't use screwy examples in my paper.
>
void DDD()
{
   H0(DDD);
}
>
_DDD()
[000020a2] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[000020a3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[000020a5] 68a2200000 push 000020a2 ; push DDD
[000020aa] e8f3f9ffff call 00001aa2 ; call H0
[000020af] 83c404     add esp,+04   ; housekeeping
[000020b2] 5d         pop ebp       ; housekeeping
[000020b3] c3         ret           ; never gets here
Size in bytes:(0018) [000020b3]
>
Exactly which step of DDD emulated by H0 was emulated
incorrectly such that this emulation would be complete?
AKA DDD emulated by H0 reaches machine address [000020b3]
>
>
>
Why does H0 NEED to be able to correctly simulate its input?
>
>
Decider must compute the mapping from their finite string
input to the actual behavior that this finite string specifies.
They are not free to imagine the behavior that the authors of
textbooks expect.
>
AND THE DEFINITION OF THAT BEHAVIOR IS THE BEHAVIOR OF THE DIRECT EXECUTION OF THE PROGRAM THE INPUT REPRESENTS.
>
Yes, the DO need to follow the behavior that the author of the problem defined.
>
You are just showing you think it is ok to not follow the REQURIEMENTS and just LIE about what you are doing.
>
The finite string input does not communicate the behavior
that the textbook authors expect it to communicate.
>
>
The finite string certainly DOES communicate what is needed to determine the behavior, or it wasn't a correct representation.
>
>
There is no sequence of truth preserving operations from the finite
string machine code of DDD that can correctly ignore the pathological
relationship between H0 and DDD as an aspect of the behavior that
this finite string specifies.
>
 Why does it need to "ignore" the relationship. We can in a finite number of operations show that the machine code of DDD (but we need ALL the machine code of DDD, including the functions it calls) show that DDD represents a Halting Program if the decider does what you claim, and returns 0 in a finite amount of time.
 
_DDD()
[00002093] 55               push ebp
[00002094] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[00002096] 6893200000       push 00002093
[0000209b] e853f4ffff       call 000014f3
[000020a0] 83c404           add esp,+04
[000020a3] 5d               pop ebp
[000020a4] c3               ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [000020a4]
We can see that H0 halts and you seem insufficiently technically
competent or outright dishonest when you imply
that H0 cannot
see that DDD correctly simulated by H0 cannot possibly get past
its own [0000209b] machine address in a finite number of steps.
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
   If simulating halt decider H *correctly simulates its input D*
   *until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never*
   *stop running unless aborted* then
   H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
   specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
</MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
17 Jun 24 * Simulating termination analyzers for dummies169olcott
17 Jun 24 +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies158Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24 i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies157olcott
17 Jun 24 i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies50Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24 i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies49olcott
17 Jun 24 i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies48Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24 i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies47olcott
17 Jun 24 i i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies46Fred. Zwarts
17 Jun 24 i i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies45olcott
18 Jun 24 i i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies44Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24 i i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies43olcott
18 Jun 24 i i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Python
18 Jun 24 i i       i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
19 Jun 24 i i       i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies38Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24 i i       i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies37olcott
18 Jun 24 i i       i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies33Fred. Zwarts
18 Jun 24 i i       i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies32olcott
18 Jun 24 i i       i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2Python
18 Jun 24 i i       i i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
19 Jun 24 i i       i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies29Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24 i i       i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies28olcott
19 Jun 24 i i       i i   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies5Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24 i i       i i   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies4olcott
19 Jun 24 i i       i i   i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24 i i       i i   i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Fred. Zwarts
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies16Richard Damon
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies15olcott
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies14Richard Damon
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies13olcott
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies12Richard Damon
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies11olcott
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i     +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Richard Damon
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   i     i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i     i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies7joes
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies6olcott
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i       +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2joes
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i       i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i       `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Richard Damon
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i        `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24 i i       i i   i         `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
20 Jun 24 i i       i i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies6Mikko
20 Jun 24 i i       i i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies5olcott
20 Jun 24 i i       i i     +- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
20 Jun 24 i i       i i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies3Mikko
20 Jun 24 i i       i i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2olcott
21 Jun 24 i i       i i       `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i i       i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies2Python
18 Jun 24 i i       i i`- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1olcott
19 Jun 24 i i       i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
19 Jun 24 i i       `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies106Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies105olcott
18 Jun 24 i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies104Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies103olcott
18 Jun 24 i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies102Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies101olcott
18 Jun 24 i       `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies100Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i        `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies99olcott
18 Jun 24 i         `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies98Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i          `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies97olcott
18 Jun 24 i           +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies95Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i           i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies94olcott
18 Jun 24 i           i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies92joes
18 Jun 24 i           i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?91olcott
18 Jun 24 i           i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?47joes
18 Jun 24 i           i i i+* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?5olcott
18 Jun 24 i           i i ii`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?4joes
18 Jun 24 i           i i ii `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?3olcott
19 Jun 24 i           i i ii  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?2joes
19 Jun 24 i           i i ii   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- test of dishonesty1olcott
18 Jun 24 i           i i i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?41olcott
18 Jun 24 i           i i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?40Alan Mackenzie
18 Jun 24 i           i i i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?39olcott
19 Jun 24 i           i i i   `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?38Alan Mackenzie
19 Jun 24 i           i i i    `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?37olcott
19 Jun 24 i           i i i     +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?5joes
19 Jun 24 i           i i i     i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- The only reply until addressed4olcott
19 Jun 24 i           i i i     i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- addressed3joes
19 Jun 24 i           i i i     i  `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- --- the only reply until FULLY addressed2olcott
20 Jun 24 i           i i i     i   `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- --- the only reply until FULLY addressed1joes
20 Jun 24 i           i i i     `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?31Mikko
20 Jun 24 i           i i i      `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?30olcott
20 Jun 24 i           i i i       `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?29Mikko
20 Jun 24 i           i i i        `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?28olcott
21 Jun 24 i           i i i         +- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1Richard Damon
21 Jun 24 i           i i i         `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?26Mikko
21 Jun 24 i           i i i          `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?25olcott
21 Jun 24 i           i i i           +- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?1Richard Damon
22 Jun 24 i           i i i           `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?23Mikko
22 Jun 24 i           i i i            `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?22olcott
22 Jun 24 i           i i i             `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?21Richard Damon
22 Jun 24 i           i i i              `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met20olcott
22 Jun 24 i           i i i               +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met3Richard Damon
22 Jun 24 i           i i i               i`* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met2olcott
22 Jun 24 i           i i i               i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met1Richard Damon
22 Jun 24 i           i i i               +- Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met1joes
23 Jun 24 i           i i i               `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met15Mikko
23 Jun 24 i           i i i                `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- criteria is met14olcott
19 Jun 24 i           i i +* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?23Richard Damon
19 Jun 24 i           i i `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers by dummies --- What does halting mean?20Fred. Zwarts
19 Jun 24 i           i `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Richard Damon
18 Jun 24 i           `- Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies1Python
18 Jun 24 `* Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies10Mikko

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