Re: Hypothetical possibilities

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: Hypothetical possibilities
De : F.Zwarts (at) *nospam* HetNet.nl (Fred. Zwarts)
Groupes : comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy
Date : 21. Jul 2024, 11:20:10
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v7incr$1uji$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
Op 20.jul.2024 om 22:02 schreef olcott:
On 7/20/2024 2:36 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 20.jul.2024 om 21:09 schreef olcott:
On 7/20/2024 2:00 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 20.jul.2024 om 17:28 schreef olcott:
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
}
>
int main()
{
   DDD();
}
>
(a) Termination Analyzers / Partial Halt Deciders must halt
this is a design requirement.
>
(b) Every simulating termination analyzer HHH either
aborts the simulation of its input or not.
>
(c) Within the hypothetical case where HHH does not abort
the simulation of its input {HHH, emulated DDD and executed DDD}
never stop running.
>
This violates the design requirement of (a) therefore HHH must
abort the simulation of its input.
>
And when it aborts, the simulation is incorrect. When HHH aborts and halts, it is not needed to abort its simulation, because it will halt of its own.
>
So you are trying to get away with saying that no HHH
ever needs to abort the simulation of its input and HHH
will stop running?
>
>
No, you try to get away with saying that a HHH that is coded to abort and halt, will never stop running, only because you are dreaming of *another* HHH that does not abort.
>
 *You know that I didn't say anything like that*
 Unless I refer to the infinite set of every possible
HHH my reviewers try to get away with saying that I am
referring to the wrong HHH.
 void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
 DDD correctly simulated by pure function HHH cannot
possibly reach its own return instruction.
 
DDD is a misleading and unneeded complication. It is easy to eliminate DDD:
        int main() {
          return HHH(main);
        }
This has the same problem. This proves that the problem is not in DDD, but in HHH, which halts when it aborts the simulation, but it decides that the simulation of itself does not halt.
It shows that HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.
HHH is simply unable to decide about finite recursions.
void Finite_Recursion (int N) {
   if (N > 0) Finite_Recursion (N - 1);
}
It decides after N recursions that there is an infinite recursion, which is incorrect.
Olcott's HHH is programmed to abort the simulation after N cycles of recursive simulations. Therefore, it is incorrect to abort the simulation of HHH when the simulated HHH has performed only N-1 cycles, because that changes the behaviour of HHH.
Since the simulated HHH always runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, it is clear that HHH can never simulate enough cycles for a correct simulation, as is required by the x86 language.
Therefore, the simulation is incorrect according to the criteria olcott stipulated.
The conclusion is simple:
HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.
No matter how much olcott wants it to be correct, or how many times olcott repeats that it is correct, it does not change the fact that such a simulation is incorrect, because it is unable to reach the end.
Olcott's own claim that the simulated HHH does not reach its end confirms it. The trace he has shown also proves that HHH cannot reach the end of its own simulation. So, his own claims prove that it is true that HHH cannot possibly simulate itself up to the end, which makes the simulation incorrect.
Sipser would agree that this incorrect simulation cannot be used to detect a non-halting behaviour.
Olcott does not know how to point to an error in this explanation, but prefers to ignore it. He even consistently removes it from the citations. So, I will repeat it, until either an error is found, or olcott admits that HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.
--
Paradoxes in the relation between Creator and creature.
<http://www.wirholt.nl/English>.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
20 Jul 24 * Hypothetical possibilities221olcott
20 Jul 24 +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities3Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities2olcott
20 Jul 24 i `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities101Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24 i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities100olcott
20 Jul 24 i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities47Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24 i i+* Re: Hypothetical possibilities6olcott
20 Jul 24 i ii+* Re: Hypothetical possibilities4Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 i iii`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities3olcott
20 Jul 24 i iii +- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i iii `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i ii`- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24 i i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities40Alan Mackenzie
20 Jul 24 i i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities11olcott
20 Jul 24 i i i+* Re: Hypothetical possibilities2Alan Mackenzie
22 Jul 24 i i ii`- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Alan Mackenzie tries to get away with mere rhetoric as a rebuttal1olcott
21 Jul 24 i i i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities8Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i i i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities7olcott
21 Jul 24 i i i  +* Re: Recursive simulation (was: Hypothetical possibilities)3joes
21 Jul 24 i i i  i`* Re: Recursive simulation2olcott
21 Jul 24 i i i  i `- Re: Recursive simulation1Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i i i  +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities2Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i i i  i`- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1joes
21 Jul 24 i i i  `- Re: Hypothetical IMpossibilities1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 i i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities2olcott
21 Jul 24 i i i`- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 i i +- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Alan Mackenzie1olcott
20 Jul 24 i i +- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Alan Mackenzie1olcott
21 Jul 24 i i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities7olcott
21 Jul 24 i i i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities6Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i i i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities5olcott
21 Jul 24 i i i  +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities3Fred. Zwarts
22 Jul 24 i i i  i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities2olcott
22 Jul 24 i i i  i `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i i i  `- Re: Hypothetical IMpossibilities1Richard Damon
22 Jul 24 i i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric16olcott
22 Jul 24 i i i+- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric1Fred. Zwarts
22 Jul 24 i i i+* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric4Alan Mackenzie
22 Jul 24 i i ii+- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric --- Liar?1olcott
22 Jul 24 i i ii`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away denying tautologies2olcott
23 Jul 24 i i ii `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away denying tautologies1Fred. Zwarts
23 Jul 24 i i i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric10Mikko
23 Jul 24 i i i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric9olcott
23 Jul 24 i i i  +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric7Alan Mackenzie
23 Jul 24 i i i  i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric --- Dishonest reviews that ignore what I say6olcott
23 Jul 24 i i i  i +- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric --- Dishonest reviews that ignore what I say1Fred. Zwarts
24 Jul 24 i i i  i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric --- Dishonest reviews that ignore what I say4Richard Damon
24 Jul 24 i i i  i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Mindless robots programmed to disagree3olcott
24 Jul 24 i i i  i   +- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Olcott is a Mindless robots programmed to disagree1Richard Damon
24 Jul 24 i i i  i   `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Mindless robots programmed to disagree1Fred. Zwarts
25 Jul 24 i i i  `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Fake rebuttals trying to get away with mere rhetoric1Mikko
22 Jul 24 i i `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- Alan Mackenzie tries to get away with mere rhetoric as a rebuttal1olcott
20 Jul 24 i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities52Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities51olcott
20 Jul 24 i   +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities49joes
20 Jul 24 i   i+- Re: Hypothetical possibilities1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24 i   i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities47olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities46Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities45olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i   `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities44Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i    `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities43olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i     `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities42Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i      `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities41olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i       `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities40Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities31olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities30Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities6olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities5Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities4olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities3Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i i   `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities2olcott
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21 Jul 24 i   i        i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully23olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully6olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  i+- Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully4joes
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully3olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully2joes
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  i   `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully1olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully16Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully14olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully13Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully8olcott
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21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully6olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i i  +* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully4joes
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i i  i`* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully3olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i i  i +- Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully1Fred. Zwarts
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i i  i `- Re: Hypothetical IMpossibilities -- I reread this again more carefully1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   i i  `- Re: Hypothetical IMpossibilities -- I reread this again more carefully1Richard Damon
22 Jul 24 i   i        i   i `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully4olcott
22 Jul 24 i   i        i   i  `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully3Richard Damon
22 Jul 24 i   i        i   i   `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully2olcott
23 Jul 24 i   i        i   i    `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i        i   `- Re: Hypothetical possibilities -- I reread this again more carefully --- correction1olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i        `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities8olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i         `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities7Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i          `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities6olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i           `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities5Richard Damon
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22 Jul 24 `* Re: Hypothetical possibilities116Mikko

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