Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller

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Sujet : Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 08. Jul 2025, 12:18:26
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <c0cf1db3b26b15b6b2df8a22e9f415c10aee59a7@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 7/7/25 10:52 PM, olcott wrote:
On 7/7/2025 9:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/7/25 7:47 PM, olcott wrote:>>
That Turing machines cannot take directly executing Turing
Machines as inputs entails that these directly executed
machines are outside of the domain of every Turing machine
based halt decider.
>
But they can take the finite-stringt encoding of those machines.
>
 Yes.
 
I guess you idea of Turing Machine is so limited that you think they can't do arithmatic, as you can't actually put a "Number" as the input, only the finite-string encoding of a number, which puts it outside the domain of them.
>
 No one here has any understanding of the philosophy of
computation. They can only memorize the rules and have
no idea about the reasoning behind these rules.
 
>
That you cannot understand that is a truism is only your
own lack of understanding.
>
But it isn't a truism, it is just a stupid lie that ignores that almost everything done with programs is via an "encoding" for the input.
>
 Gross ignorance about the reasoning behind the rules
of computation would tell you that.
 
>
https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf
*Here is the Linz proof corrected to account for that*
>
*adapted from bottom of page 319*
When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H reaches
     its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H cannot possibly
     reach its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>
>
>
Which is just an admission of your lying strawman, as the question is NOT about the (partial) simulation done by your H / embedded_H, but about the direct execution of the input H^ (H^) as that is what the input to H is encoding.
>
 Because no Turing machine can take a directly executed
Turing machine as an input, directly executed Turing
machines have always been outside of the domain of every
Turing machine based decider.
Then evdrything in reality is outside the domain of Turing Machines.

 "the direct execution of the input H^ (H^)" has always been
out-of-scope for every Turing machine based halt decider.
That no one bothered to notice this ever before
*DOES NOT MAKE ME WRONG*
But it hasn't been, and thus you are just wrong.

 An actual rebuttal requires proving that Turing machines
can take directly executing Turing machines (that are not
finite string encodings) as inputs.
But the Turing Machine that is directly executed CAN be represented by a finite string,.

 Alan had a hard time on this because a directly executed
machine never had to be divided from the simulation of
a finite string encoding before I created the idea of a
simulating halt decider.
 
Because that isn't a valid operation, just your insanity.
Since it CAN be represented as a finite string, it IS in the domain that they can handle,
To ignore the ability to represent means you ignore their ability to do anything useful.
I will ask you try to do something useful without representations!!!
Note, Words are representations.
Letters and Digits are representations.
Messages sent over media are representations.
Saying you can't use representtions means you can basically do NOTHING, and the finite string they work with are just meaningless.
Just like your life, MEANINGLESS as you lost the key to reality, the understanding of real meaning.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
3 Jun 25 * My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller175olcott
4 Jun 25 +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller112dbush
4 Jun 25 i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller111olcott
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4 Jun 25 i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller107dbush
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4 Jun 25 i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller105dbush
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4 Jul21:53 i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller103Richard Damon
4 Jul23:11 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller92olcott
5 Jul14:14 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller91Richard Damon
5 Jul17:26 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller90olcott
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6 Jul04:02 i i      i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller88Richard Damon
6 Jul05:34 i i      i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller87olcott
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6 Jul12:50 i i      i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller85Richard Damon
6 Jul16:19 i i      i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller84olcott
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6 Jul21:06 i i      i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller82olcott
7 Jul03:09 i i      i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller80Richard Damon
7 Jul04:12 i i      i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller79olcott
7 Jul08:36 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller46Fred. Zwarts
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8 Jul09:10 i i      i         i ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:59 i i      i         i ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
9 Jul10:58 i i      i         i ii  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:46 i i      i         i ii  i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
10 Jul12:17 i i      i         i ii  i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
10 Jul12:41 i i      i         i ii  i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:32 i i      i         i ii  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul19:38 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller37olcott
7 Jul23:41 i i      i         i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller35Richard Damon
8 Jul00:52 i i      i         i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller34olcott
8 Jul03:18 i i      i         i i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller33Richard Damon
8 Jul03:38 i i      i         i i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller32olcott
8 Jul08:15 i i      i         i i i   +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9joes
8 Jul15:14 i i      i         i i i   i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
8 Jul17:10 i i      i         i i i   i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6joes
8 Jul17:22 i i      i         i i i   i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
8 Jul18:44 i i      i         i i i   i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
8 Jul19:21 i i      i         i i i   i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:38 i i      i         i i i   i i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:36 i i      i         i i i   i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:34 i i      i         i i i   i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:13 i i      i         i i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller22Richard Damon
8 Jul16:08 i i      i         i i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller21olcott
8 Jul17:07 i i      i         i i i     +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller17joes
8 Jul17:19 i i      i         i i i     i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
8 Jul23:33 i i      i         i i i     ii`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
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9 Jul12:48 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul10:09 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:35 i i      i         i i i     i  i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
10 Jul02:39 i i      i         i i i     i  i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
10 Jul12:08 i i      i         i i i     i  i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul12:44 i i      i         i i i     i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Richard Damon
9 Jul14:55 i i      i         i i i     i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike5olcott
10 Jul02:49 i i      i         i i i     i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike4Richard Damon
10 Jul03:50 i i      i         i i i     i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike3olcott
10 Jul12:35 i i      i         i i i     i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike2Richard Damon
10 Jul14:24 i i      i         i i i     i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike1olcott
8 Jul23:31 i i      i         i i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
8 Jul23:51 i i      i         i i i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:51 i i      i         i i i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul09:17 i i      i         i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul09:37 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9Mikko
7 Jul15:15 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
7 Jul23:45 i i      i         i i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul08:44 i i      i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Mikko
8 Jul15:21 i i      i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
9 Jul09:22 i i      i         i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Mikko
9 Jul13:25 i i      i         i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
10 Jul03:00 i i      i         i i     +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
10 Jul10:30 i i      i         i i     `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Mikko
7 Jul12:19 i i      i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller23Richard Damon
7 Jul14:32 i i      i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller22olcott
7 Jul23:39 i i      i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller21Richard Damon
8 Jul00:47 i i      i         i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller20olcott
8 Jul03:24 i i      i         i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller19Richard Damon
8 Jul03:52 i i      i         i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller18olcott
8 Jul08:55 i i      i         i       +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:31 i i      i         i       i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
9 Jul10:04 i i      i         i       i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:16 i i      i         i       i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
10 Jul11:59 i i      i         i       i   +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
10 Jul12:36 i i      i         i       i   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:18 i i      i         i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller11Richard Damon
8 Jul16:17 i i      i         i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller10olcott
9 Jul09:58 i i      i         i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:02 i i      i         i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7olcott
9 Jul14:37 i i      i         i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5joes
9 Jul15:06 i i      i         i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
9 Jul16:42 i i      i         i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
9 Jul17:06 i i      i         i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
10 Jul11:12 i i      i         i         i i   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1joes
10 Jul11:54 i i      i         i         i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul13:00 i i      i         i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul09:34 i i      i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Mikko
4 Jul23:15 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
5 Jul16:11 i i      `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
4 Jun 25 i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller61Mikko

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