Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller

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Sujet : Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller
De : F.Zwarts (at) *nospam* HetNet.nl (Fred. Zwarts)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 09. Jul 2025, 09:58:42
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <104lb03$13ioh$2@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
Op 08.jul.2025 om 17:17 schreef olcott:
On 7/8/2025 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/7/25 10:52 PM, olcott wrote:
On 7/7/2025 9:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/7/25 7:47 PM, olcott wrote:>>
That Turing machines cannot take directly executing Turing
Machines as inputs entails that these directly executed
machines are outside of the domain of every Turing machine
based halt decider.
>
But they can take the finite-stringt encoding of those machines.
>
>
Yes.
>
I guess you idea of Turing Machine is so limited that you think they can't do arithmatic, as you can't actually put a "Number" as the input, only the finite-string encoding of a number, which puts it outside the domain of them.
>
>
No one here has any understanding of the philosophy of
computation. They can only memorize the rules and have
no idea about the reasoning behind these rules.
>
>
That you cannot understand that is a truism is only your
own lack of understanding.
>
But it isn't a truism, it is just a stupid lie that ignores that almost everything done with programs is via an "encoding" for the input.
>
>
Gross ignorance about the reasoning behind the rules
of computation would tell you that.
>
>
https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf
*Here is the Linz proof corrected to account for that*
>
*adapted from bottom of page 319*
When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H reaches
     its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H cannot possibly
     reach its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>
>
>
Which is just an admission of your lying strawman, as the question is NOT about the (partial) simulation done by your H / embedded_H, but about the direct execution of the input H^ (H^) as that is what the input to H is encoding.
>
>
Because no Turing machine can take a directly executed
Turing machine as an input, directly executed Turing
machines have always been outside of the domain of every
Turing machine based decider.
>
Then evdrything in reality is outside the domain of Turing Machines.
>
>
"the direct execution of the input H^ (H^)" has always been
out-of-scope for every Turing machine based halt decider.
That no one bothered to notice this ever before
*DOES NOT MAKE ME WRONG*
>
But it hasn't been, and thus you are just wrong.
>
>
An actual rebuttal requires proving that Turing machines
can take directly executing Turing machines (that are not
finite string encodings) as inputs.
>
But the Turing Machine that is directly executed CAN be represented by a finite string,.
>
 In the case of pathological self-reference the
representation has different behavior than the
directly executed machine and halt deciders only
report on the actual behavior actually specified
by their inputs.
 
As usual a false claim, without evidence.
The evidence is that the input includes the code to abort and halt, but HHH is unable to reach that part. This failure of HHH does not make the specification any different. It only shows that this simulating decider is not the right tool for this input.
HHH should report on the behaviour specified, not on the behaviour it can see. If HHH has bugs, so that it does not see the full specification, the specification does not change.
Closing your eyes and pretend that what you do not see does not exists, is childish.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
3 Jun 25 * My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller180olcott
4 Jun 25 +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller117dbush
4 Jun 25 i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller116olcott
4 Jun 25 i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller114dbush
4 Jun 25 i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller113olcott
4 Jun 25 i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller112dbush
4 Jun 25 i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller111olcott
4 Jun 25 i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller110dbush
4 Jul21:43 i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller109olcott
4 Jul21:53 i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller108Richard Damon
4 Jul23:11 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller97olcott
5 Jul14:14 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller96Richard Damon
5 Jul17:26 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller95olcott
6 Jul01:44 i i      i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller94Richard Damon
6 Jul04:02 i i      i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller93Richard Damon
6 Jul05:34 i i      i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller92olcott
6 Jul10:32 i i      i     +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul12:50 i i      i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller90Richard Damon
6 Jul16:19 i i      i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller89olcott
6 Jul18:00 i i      i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller88Richard Damon
6 Jul21:06 i i      i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller87olcott
7 Jul03:09 i i      i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller85Richard Damon
7 Jul04:12 i i      i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller84olcott
7 Jul08:36 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller48Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul14:23 i i      i         i i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
8 Jul09:10 i i      i         i ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:59 i i      i         i ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7olcott
9 Jul10:58 i i      i         i ii  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:46 i i      i         i ii  i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
10 Jul12:17 i i      i         i ii  i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
10 Jul15:46 i i      i         i ii  i i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
10 Jul12:41 i i      i         i ii  i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:32 i i      i         i ii  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul19:38 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller38olcott
7 Jul23:41 i i      i         i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller36Richard Damon
8 Jul00:52 i i      i         i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller35olcott
8 Jul03:18 i i      i         i i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller34Richard Damon
8 Jul03:38 i i      i         i i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller33olcott
8 Jul08:15 i i      i         i i i   +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9joes
8 Jul15:14 i i      i         i i i   i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
8 Jul17:10 i i      i         i i i   i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6joes
8 Jul17:22 i i      i         i i i   i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
8 Jul18:44 i i      i         i i i   i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
8 Jul19:21 i i      i         i i i   i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:38 i i      i         i i i   i i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:36 i i      i         i i i   i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:34 i i      i         i i i   i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:13 i i      i         i i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller23Richard Damon
8 Jul16:08 i i      i         i i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller22olcott
8 Jul17:07 i i      i         i i i     +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller18joes
8 Jul17:19 i i      i         i i i     i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
8 Jul23:33 i i      i         i i i     ii`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul20:01 i i      i         i i i     i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller15Mike Terry
8 Jul20:49 i i      i         i i i     i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller14olcott
9 Jul02:30 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:48 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul10:09 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:35 i i      i         i i i     i  i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
10 Jul02:39 i i      i         i i i     i  i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
10 Jul12:08 i i      i         i i i     i  i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
10 Jul15:43 i i      i         i i i     i  i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul12:44 i i      i         i i i     i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Richard Damon
9 Jul14:55 i i      i         i i i     i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike5olcott
10 Jul02:49 i i      i         i i i     i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike4Richard Damon
10 Jul03:50 i i      i         i i i     i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike3olcott
10 Jul12:35 i i      i         i i i     i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike2Richard Damon
10 Jul14:24 i i      i         i i i     i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike1olcott
8 Jul23:31 i i      i         i i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
8 Jul23:51 i i      i         i i i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:51 i i      i         i i i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul09:17 i i      i         i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul09:37 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller10Mikko
7 Jul15:15 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
7 Jul23:45 i i      i         i i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul08:44 i i      i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7Mikko
8 Jul15:21 i i      i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
9 Jul09:22 i i      i         i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Mikko
9 Jul13:25 i i      i         i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
10 Jul03:00 i i      i         i i     +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
10 Jul10:30 i i      i         i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Mikko
10 Jul15:26 i i      i         i i      `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
7 Jul12:19 i i      i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller25Richard Damon
7 Jul14:32 i i      i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller24olcott
7 Jul23:39 i i      i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller23Richard Damon
8 Jul00:47 i i      i         i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller22olcott
8 Jul03:24 i i      i         i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller21Richard Damon
8 Jul03:52 i i      i         i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller20olcott
8 Jul08:55 i i      i         i       +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:31 i i      i         i       i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
9 Jul10:04 i i      i         i       i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:16 i i      i         i       i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
10 Jul11:59 i i      i         i       i   +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
10 Jul12:36 i i      i         i       i   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:18 i i      i         i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller13Richard Damon
8 Jul16:17 i i      i         i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller12olcott
9 Jul09:58 i i      i         i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller10Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:02 i i      i         i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
9 Jul14:37 i i      i         i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6joes
9 Jul15:06 i i      i         i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
9 Jul16:42 i i      i         i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4joes
9 Jul17:06 i i      i         i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
10 Jul11:54 i i      i         i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul13:00 i i      i         i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul09:34 i i      i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Mikko
4 Jul23:15 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
5 Jul16:11 i i      `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
4 Jun 25 i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller61Mikko

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