Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller
De : F.Zwarts (at) *nospam* HetNet.nl (Fred. Zwarts)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 09. Jul 2025, 09:58:42
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <104lb03$13ioh$2@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
Op 08.jul.2025 om 17:17 schreef olcott:
On 7/8/2025 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/7/25 10:52 PM, olcott wrote:
On 7/7/2025 9:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/7/25 7:47 PM, olcott wrote:>>
That Turing machines cannot take directly executing Turing
Machines as inputs entails that these directly executed
machines are outside of the domain of every Turing machine
based halt decider.
>
But they can take the finite-stringt encoding of those machines.
>
>
Yes.
>
I guess you idea of Turing Machine is so limited that you think they can't do arithmatic, as you can't actually put a "Number" as the input, only the finite-string encoding of a number, which puts it outside the domain of them.
>
>
No one here has any understanding of the philosophy of
computation. They can only memorize the rules and have
no idea about the reasoning behind these rules.
>
>
That you cannot understand that is a truism is only your
own lack of understanding.
>
But it isn't a truism, it is just a stupid lie that ignores that almost everything done with programs is via an "encoding" for the input.
>
>
Gross ignorance about the reasoning behind the rules
of computation would tell you that.
>
>
https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf
*Here is the Linz proof corrected to account for that*
>
*adapted from bottom of page 319*
When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H reaches
     its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H cannot possibly
     reach its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>
>
>
Which is just an admission of your lying strawman, as the question is NOT about the (partial) simulation done by your H / embedded_H, but about the direct execution of the input H^ (H^) as that is what the input to H is encoding.
>
>
Because no Turing machine can take a directly executed
Turing machine as an input, directly executed Turing
machines have always been outside of the domain of every
Turing machine based decider.
>
Then evdrything in reality is outside the domain of Turing Machines.
>
>
"the direct execution of the input H^ (H^)" has always been
out-of-scope for every Turing machine based halt decider.
That no one bothered to notice this ever before
*DOES NOT MAKE ME WRONG*
>
But it hasn't been, and thus you are just wrong.
>
>
An actual rebuttal requires proving that Turing machines
can take directly executing Turing machines (that are not
finite string encodings) as inputs.
>
But the Turing Machine that is directly executed CAN be represented by a finite string,.
>
 In the case of pathological self-reference the
representation has different behavior than the
directly executed machine and halt deciders only
report on the actual behavior actually specified
by their inputs.
 
As usual a false claim, without evidence.
The evidence is that the input includes the code to abort and halt, but HHH is unable to reach that part. This failure of HHH does not make the specification any different. It only shows that this simulating decider is not the right tool for this input.
HHH should report on the behaviour specified, not on the behaviour it can see. If HHH has bugs, so that it does not see the full specification, the specification does not change.
Closing your eyes and pretend that what you do not see does not exists, is childish.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
3 Jun 25 * My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller160olcott
4 Jun 25 +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller97dbush
4 Jun 25 i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller96olcott
4 Jun 25 i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller94dbush
4 Jun 25 i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller93olcott
4 Jun 25 i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller92dbush
4 Jun 25 i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller91olcott
4 Jun 25 i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller90dbush
4 Jul21:43 i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller89olcott
4 Jul21:53 i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller88Richard Damon
4 Jul23:11 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller77olcott
5 Jul14:14 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller76Richard Damon
5 Jul17:26 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller75olcott
6 Jul01:44 i i      i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller74Richard Damon
6 Jul04:02 i i      i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller73Richard Damon
6 Jul05:34 i i      i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller72olcott
6 Jul10:32 i i      i     +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul12:50 i i      i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller70Richard Damon
6 Jul16:19 i i      i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller69olcott
6 Jul18:00 i i      i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller68Richard Damon
6 Jul21:06 i i      i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller67olcott
7 Jul03:09 i i      i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller65Richard Damon
7 Jul04:12 i i      i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller64olcott
7 Jul08:36 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller38Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul14:23 i i      i         i i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
8 Jul09:10 i i      i         i ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:59 i i      i         i ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
9 Jul10:58 i i      i         i ii  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:46 i i      i         i ii  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul12:32 i i      i         i ii  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul19:38 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller31olcott
7 Jul23:41 i i      i         i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller29Richard Damon
8 Jul00:52 i i      i         i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller28olcott
8 Jul03:18 i i      i         i i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller27Richard Damon
8 Jul03:38 i i      i         i i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller26olcott
8 Jul08:15 i i      i         i i i   +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9joes
8 Jul15:14 i i      i         i i i   i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
8 Jul17:10 i i      i         i i i   i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6joes
8 Jul17:22 i i      i         i i i   i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
8 Jul18:44 i i      i         i i i   i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
8 Jul19:21 i i      i         i i i   i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:38 i i      i         i i i   i i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:36 i i      i         i i i   i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:34 i i      i         i i i   i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:13 i i      i         i i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller16Richard Damon
8 Jul16:08 i i      i         i i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller15olcott
8 Jul17:07 i i      i         i i i     +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller11joes
8 Jul17:19 i i      i         i i i     i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
8 Jul23:33 i i      i         i i i     ii`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul20:01 i i      i         i i i     i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8Mike Terry
8 Jul20:49 i i      i         i i i     i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7olcott
9 Jul02:30 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:48 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul10:09 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:35 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul12:44 i i      i         i i i     i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Richard Damon
9 Jul14:55 i i      i         i i i     i   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike1olcott
8 Jul23:31 i i      i         i i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
8 Jul23:51 i i      i         i i i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:51 i i      i         i i i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul09:17 i i      i         i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul09:37 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7Mikko
7 Jul15:15 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
7 Jul23:45 i i      i         i i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul08:44 i i      i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Mikko
8 Jul15:21 i i      i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul09:22 i i      i         i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Mikko
9 Jul13:25 i i      i         i i    `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
7 Jul12:19 i i      i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller18Richard Damon
7 Jul14:32 i i      i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller17olcott
7 Jul23:39 i i      i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller16Richard Damon
8 Jul00:47 i i      i         i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller15olcott
8 Jul03:24 i i      i         i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller14Richard Damon
8 Jul03:52 i i      i         i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller13olcott
8 Jul08:55 i i      i         i       +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:31 i i      i         i       i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul10:04 i i      i         i       i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:16 i i      i         i       i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
8 Jul12:18 i i      i         i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8Richard Damon
8 Jul16:17 i i      i         i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7olcott
9 Jul09:58 i i      i         i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:02 i i      i         i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
9 Jul14:37 i i      i         i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
9 Jul15:06 i i      i         i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul16:42 i i      i         i         i   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1joes
9 Jul13:00 i i      i         i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul09:34 i i      i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Mikko
4 Jul23:15 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
5 Jul08:39 i i      i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul17:12 i i      ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
6 Jul10:24 i i      ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul16:36 i i      ii  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
7 Jul08:42 i i      ii   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul14:20 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
5 Jul17:31 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
6 Jul01:47 i i      i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
5 Jul16:11 i i      `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
4 Jun 25 i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller61Mikko
4 Jun 25  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller60olcott

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal