Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller
De : F.Zwarts (at) *nospam* HetNet.nl (Fred. Zwarts)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 09. Jul 2025, 10:58:24
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <104leg1$13ioh$5@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
Op 08.jul.2025 om 16:59 schreef olcott:
On 7/8/2025 3:10 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 07.jul.2025 om 15:23 schreef olcott:
On 7/7/2025 2:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 07.jul.2025 om 05:12 schreef olcott:
On 7/6/2025 9:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/6/25 4:06 PM, olcott wrote:
On 7/6/2025 12:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/6/25 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
*EVERY BOT FIGURES THIS OUT ON ITS OWN*
>
No, it just isn't smart enough to detect that you lied in your premise.
>
There is no way that DDD simulated by HHH (according
to the semantics of the C programming language)
can possibly reach its own "return" statement final
halt state.
>
And there is no way for HHH to correctly simulate its input and return an answer
>
>
You insistence that a non-terminating input be simulated
until non-existent completion is especially nuts because
you have been told about this dozens of times.
>
What the F is wrong with you?
>
>
It seems you don't understand those words.
>
I don't say that the decider needs to simulate the input to completion, but that it needs to be able to actually PROVE that if this exact input WAS given to a correct simultor (which won't be itself, since it isn't doing the complete simulation) will run for an unbounded number of steps.
>
>
No decider is ever allowed to report on anything
besides the actual behavior that its input actually
specifies.
>
And HHH does not do that. The input specifies a halting program, because it includes the abort code.
>
>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
_DDD()
[00002192] 55             push ebp
[00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192  // push DDD
[0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH
[0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04
[000021a2] 5d             pop ebp
[000021a3] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>
That does have an effect on DDD emulated by HHH according
to the semantics of the x86 language stopping running.
It has no effect on this DDD every reaching its final halt
state. I have corrected your error on this too many times
you don't seem to want an honest dialogue.
>
As usual repeated claims without evidence.
 100% *complete proof is provided above*
That you don't have sufficient technical
skill to see that this is complete proof
is not my mistake.
You fail to see that it is not a 100% proof. It is incomplete. The code has a call to 000015d2 , but you do not show the code there. we know that this code is the HHH that aborts and halts, so a correct simulation will then reach 0000219f and then reach the final halt state.
We also know that HHH fails to reach that final halt state, because of a premature abort. A proof with so many errors, is far from 100%.
You can close your eyes for these errors and pretend that they do not exists, but that would be childish.

 
It is a pity that you ignore or do not understand the corrections that have been pointed out to you. Not understanding something is not stupid, but resistance against learning from errors is.
>
 DDD correctly simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)...
Using falsehoods to prove your case is not convincing. We know that HHH aborts before 6 cycles have been simulated.

 That you cannot see that this is the behavior
that the input to HHH(DDD) specifies is your
own lack of technical skill.
That you do not even understand your own code, where HHH aborts after a few cycles, does not change the fact that the real behaviour specified is a halting program. But as usual, you and HHH close your eyes and pretend that what you do not see does not exist.

 *Maybe it is time to reveal credentials*
I have taken all but one of the courses
for a computer science degree and been a
C++ software engineer for two decades.
Mensa scored my IQ is in the top 3%.
 
We have pointed out already many times that this cannot be the whole input. At 0000219a there is a call to 000015d2 , but the code at 000015d2 is not specified.
 https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf
Because of the required cooperative multi-tasking
it is a little too difficult to see which the
actual trace.
Even that trace proves that HHH aborts before it can see the full behaviour specified in the input. Then it closes it eyes and pretends that what it does not see does not exist.

 
We have to take it from another source, your Halt7.c. There we see that HHH is a function that returns with a value 0 with this input. So, a correct simulation will then continue at 0000219f
 DDD simulated by HHH according to the semantics of the x86
language cannot possibly ever get there even of your lack
of sufficient technical skill tells you so.
 *Feel free to dig through this full trace and see*
https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf
 
with this value and even a beginner sees that the simulation will then reach a natural end.
 *DDD simulated by HHH NEVER REACHES ITS FINAL HALT STATE*
DDD correctly simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)...
Again the same falsehood. HHH aborts way before simulating 6 cycles.
Using falsehoods to prove your case does not make your case any stronger.

 
This is the full specification of the input.
This is also proven when exactly the same input is used in direct execution, or by world-class simulators, even by HHH1.
So, the following still holds:
>
>
But HHH gives up before it reaches that part of the specification and the final halt state.
If HHH does not see the full specification, it does not change the specification. It only illustrates the failure of the simulation to complete.
There is nothing wrong with aborting a simulation, because it is known that simulation is not always the correct tool to determine halting/ non- halting behaviour. In such cases other tools are needed to determine halting/non-halting behaviour.
 

Date Sujet#  Auteur
3 Jun 25 * My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller161olcott
4 Jun 25 +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller98dbush
4 Jun 25 i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller97olcott
4 Jun 25 i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller95dbush
4 Jun 25 i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller94olcott
4 Jun 25 i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller93dbush
4 Jun 25 i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller92olcott
4 Jun 25 i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller91dbush
4 Jul21:43 i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller90olcott
4 Jul21:53 i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller89Richard Damon
4 Jul23:11 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller78olcott
5 Jul14:14 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller77Richard Damon
5 Jul17:26 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller76olcott
6 Jul01:44 i i      i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller75Richard Damon
6 Jul04:02 i i      i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller74Richard Damon
6 Jul05:34 i i      i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller73olcott
6 Jul10:32 i i      i     +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul12:50 i i      i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller71Richard Damon
6 Jul16:19 i i      i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller70olcott
6 Jul18:00 i i      i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller69Richard Damon
6 Jul21:06 i i      i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller68olcott
7 Jul03:09 i i      i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller66Richard Damon
7 Jul04:12 i i      i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller65olcott
7 Jul08:36 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller38Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul14:23 i i      i         i i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
8 Jul09:10 i i      i         i ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:59 i i      i         i ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
9 Jul10:58 i i      i         i ii  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:46 i i      i         i ii  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul12:32 i i      i         i ii  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul19:38 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller31olcott
7 Jul23:41 i i      i         i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller29Richard Damon
8 Jul00:52 i i      i         i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller28olcott
8 Jul03:18 i i      i         i i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller27Richard Damon
8 Jul03:38 i i      i         i i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller26olcott
8 Jul08:15 i i      i         i i i   +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9joes
8 Jul15:14 i i      i         i i i   i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
8 Jul17:10 i i      i         i i i   i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6joes
8 Jul17:22 i i      i         i i i   i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
8 Jul18:44 i i      i         i i i   i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
8 Jul19:21 i i      i         i i i   i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:38 i i      i         i i i   i i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:36 i i      i         i i i   i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:34 i i      i         i i i   i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:13 i i      i         i i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller16Richard Damon
8 Jul16:08 i i      i         i i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller15olcott
8 Jul17:07 i i      i         i i i     +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller11joes
8 Jul17:19 i i      i         i i i     i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
8 Jul23:33 i i      i         i i i     ii`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul20:01 i i      i         i i i     i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8Mike Terry
8 Jul20:49 i i      i         i i i     i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7olcott
9 Jul02:30 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:48 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul10:09 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:35 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul12:44 i i      i         i i i     i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Richard Damon
9 Jul14:55 i i      i         i i i     i   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike1olcott
8 Jul23:31 i i      i         i i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
8 Jul23:51 i i      i         i i i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:51 i i      i         i i i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul09:17 i i      i         i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul09:37 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7Mikko
7 Jul15:15 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
7 Jul23:45 i i      i         i i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul08:44 i i      i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Mikko
8 Jul15:21 i i      i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul09:22 i i      i         i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Mikko
9 Jul13:25 i i      i         i i    `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
7 Jul12:19 i i      i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller19Richard Damon
7 Jul14:32 i i      i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller18olcott
7 Jul23:39 i i      i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller17Richard Damon
8 Jul00:47 i i      i         i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller16olcott
8 Jul03:24 i i      i         i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller15Richard Damon
8 Jul03:52 i i      i         i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller14olcott
8 Jul08:55 i i      i         i       +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:31 i i      i         i       i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul10:04 i i      i         i       i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:16 i i      i         i       i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
8 Jul12:18 i i      i         i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9Richard Damon
8 Jul16:17 i i      i         i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
9 Jul09:58 i i      i         i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:02 i i      i         i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
9 Jul14:37 i i      i         i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4joes
9 Jul15:06 i i      i         i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul16:42 i i      i         i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2joes
9 Jul17:06 i i      i         i         i    `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul13:00 i i      i         i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul09:34 i i      i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Mikko
4 Jul23:15 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
5 Jul08:39 i i      i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul17:12 i i      ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
6 Jul10:24 i i      ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul16:36 i i      ii  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
7 Jul08:42 i i      ii   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul14:20 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
5 Jul17:31 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
6 Jul01:47 i i      i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
5 Jul16:11 i i      `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
4 Jun 25 i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller61Mikko

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal