Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller

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Sujet : Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 09. Jul 2025, 12:32:39
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <52afe64712416f9ad710af593e99614e1d829f51@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 7/8/25 10:59 AM, olcott wrote:
On 7/8/2025 3:10 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 07.jul.2025 om 15:23 schreef olcott:
On 7/7/2025 2:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 07.jul.2025 om 05:12 schreef olcott:
On 7/6/2025 9:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/6/25 4:06 PM, olcott wrote:
On 7/6/2025 12:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/6/25 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
*EVERY BOT FIGURES THIS OUT ON ITS OWN*
>
No, it just isn't smart enough to detect that you lied in your premise.
>
There is no way that DDD simulated by HHH (according
to the semantics of the C programming language)
can possibly reach its own "return" statement final
halt state.
>
And there is no way for HHH to correctly simulate its input and return an answer
>
>
You insistence that a non-terminating input be simulated
until non-existent completion is especially nuts because
you have been told about this dozens of times.
>
What the F is wrong with you?
>
>
It seems you don't understand those words.
>
I don't say that the decider needs to simulate the input to completion, but that it needs to be able to actually PROVE that if this exact input WAS given to a correct simultor (which won't be itself, since it isn't doing the complete simulation) will run for an unbounded number of steps.
>
>
No decider is ever allowed to report on anything
besides the actual behavior that its input actually
specifies.
>
And HHH does not do that. The input specifies a halting program, because it includes the abort code.
>
>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
_DDD()
[00002192] 55             push ebp
[00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192  // push DDD
[0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH
[0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04
[000021a2] 5d             pop ebp
[000021a3] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>
That does have an effect on DDD emulated by HHH according
to the semantics of the x86 language stopping running.
It has no effect on this DDD every reaching its final halt
state. I have corrected your error on this too many times
you don't seem to want an honest dialogue.
>
As usual repeated claims without evidence.
 100% *complete proof is provided above*
No it isn't. as it is based on incorrect statements.

That you don't have sufficient technical
skill to see that this is complete proof
is not my mistake.
That you don't know

 
It is a pity that you ignore or do not understand the corrections that have been pointed out to you. Not understanding something is not stupid, but resistance against learning from errors is.
>
 DDD correctly simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)...
Which doesn't actually happen exceot in your fantasy world.

 That you cannot see that this is the behavior
that the input to HHH(DDD) specifies is your
own lack of technical skill.
No, it shows your stupidity.
It isn't the pattern shown as what HHH does in your own traces, and thus it can't be the correct simulation of the HHH that HHH sees.

 *Maybe it is time to reveal credentials*
I have taken all but one of the courses
for a computer science degree and been a
C++ software engineer for two decades.
Mensa scored my IQ is in the top 3%.
In other words, you have NO degree in computer science, and at one time were smart.
What happened?
And I have an MASTERS degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from the Massachussetts Institute of Technology, where I studied not only advanced programming techniques, but also how computers actually work.
I currently serve as a Cheif Engineer at the company I work for, and one of my resposibilities is mentoring the team of Software Engineers at the company. Most of the software that is produced is based on libraries that I have produced that maybe total somewhere need 100,000 lines of code.
Who trusts YOU to teach others?

 
We have pointed out already many times that this cannot be the whole input. At 0000219a there is a call to 000015d2 , but the code at 000015d2 is not specified.
 https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf
Because of the required cooperative multi-tasking
it is a little too difficult to see which the
actual trace.
Which isn't at all the trace of what HHH sees, but of what HHH does.
WHich proves that when DDD calls HHH, it WILL return to DDD if it is correctly simulated, and thus that DDD will halt when run,

 
We have to take it from another source, your Halt7.c. There we see that HHH is a function that returns with a value 0 with this input. So, a correct simulation will then continue at 0000219f
 DDD simulated by HHH according to the semantics of the x86
language cannot possibly ever get there even of your lack
of sufficient technical skill tells you so.
Only because HHH doesn't do a correct simulation.
The correct simulation of DDD is shown to halt, as you big trace shows, since main and DDD are identical (except for the address of the code) and the code of main is shown to return.

 *Feel free to dig through this full trace and see*
https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf
Right, which PROVES that DDD will halt, and that HHH doesn't do a correct simulation as it aborts its simulaiton.

 
with this value and even a beginner sees that the simulation will then reach a natural end.
 *DDD simulated by HHH NEVER REACHES ITS FINAL HALT STATE*
DDD correctly simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)...
Which is an incorrect statement of what happens, it is just what happens in you fantasy world where HHH just fails to give an answer.
Sorry, that has been proven, and you are just too stupid to see your own lies because you have brainwashed yourself.

 
This is the full specification of the input.
This is also proven when exactly the same input is used in direct execution, or by world-class simulators, even by HHH1.
So, the following still holds:
>
>
But HHH gives up before it reaches that part of the specification and the final halt state.
If HHH does not see the full specification, it does not change the specification. It only illustrates the failure of the simulation to complete.
There is nothing wrong with aborting a simulation, because it is known that simulation is not always the correct tool to determine halting/ non- halting behaviour. In such cases other tools are needed to determine halting/non-halting behaviour.
 

Date Sujet#  Auteur
3 Jun 25 * My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller164olcott
4 Jun 25 +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller101dbush
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4 Jun 25 i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller96dbush
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4 Jun 25 i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller94dbush
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4 Jul21:53 i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller92Richard Damon
4 Jul23:11 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller81olcott
5 Jul14:14 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller80Richard Damon
5 Jul17:26 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller79olcott
6 Jul01:44 i i      i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller78Richard Damon
6 Jul04:02 i i      i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller77Richard Damon
6 Jul05:34 i i      i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller76olcott
6 Jul10:32 i i      i     +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul12:50 i i      i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller74Richard Damon
6 Jul16:19 i i      i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller73olcott
6 Jul18:00 i i      i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller72Richard Damon
6 Jul21:06 i i      i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller71olcott
7 Jul03:09 i i      i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller69Richard Damon
7 Jul04:12 i i      i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller68olcott
7 Jul08:36 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller40Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul14:23 i i      i         i i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6olcott
8 Jul09:10 i i      i         i ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:59 i i      i         i ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
9 Jul10:58 i i      i         i ii  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:46 i i      i         i ii  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul12:32 i i      i         i ii  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul19:38 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller33olcott
7 Jul23:41 i i      i         i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller31Richard Damon
8 Jul00:52 i i      i         i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller30olcott
8 Jul03:18 i i      i         i i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller29Richard Damon
8 Jul03:38 i i      i         i i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller28olcott
8 Jul08:15 i i      i         i i i   +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9joes
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8 Jul17:10 i i      i         i i i   i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6joes
8 Jul17:22 i i      i         i i i   i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
8 Jul18:44 i i      i         i i i   i i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3joes
8 Jul19:21 i i      i         i i i   i i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:38 i i      i         i i i   i i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:36 i i      i         i i i   i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:34 i i      i         i i i   i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul12:13 i i      i         i i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller18Richard Damon
8 Jul16:08 i i      i         i i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller17olcott
8 Jul17:07 i i      i         i i i     +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller13joes
8 Jul17:19 i i      i         i i i     i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
8 Jul23:33 i i      i         i i i     ii`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul20:01 i i      i         i i i     i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller10Mike Terry
8 Jul20:49 i i      i         i i i     i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
9 Jul02:30 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:48 i i      i         i i i     i  i`- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul10:09 i i      i         i i i     i  +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:35 i i      i         i i i     i  i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
10 Jul02:39 i i      i         i i i     i  i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
9 Jul12:44 i i      i         i i i     i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
9 Jul14:55 i i      i         i i i     i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike2olcott
10 Jul02:49 i i      i         i i i     i    `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller --- Mike1Richard Damon
8 Jul23:31 i i      i         i i i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
8 Jul23:51 i i      i         i i i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
9 Jul12:51 i i      i         i i i       `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul09:17 i i      i         i i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
7 Jul09:37 i i      i         i +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8Mikko
7 Jul15:15 i i      i         i i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller7olcott
7 Jul23:45 i i      i         i i +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
8 Jul08:44 i i      i         i i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Mikko
8 Jul15:21 i i      i         i i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
9 Jul09:22 i i      i         i i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Mikko
9 Jul13:25 i i      i         i i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
10 Jul03:00 i i      i         i i     `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul12:19 i i      i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller19Richard Damon
7 Jul14:32 i i      i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller18olcott
7 Jul23:39 i i      i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller17Richard Damon
8 Jul00:47 i i      i         i    `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller16olcott
8 Jul03:24 i i      i         i     `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller15Richard Damon
8 Jul03:52 i i      i         i      `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller14olcott
8 Jul08:55 i i      i         i       +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4Fred. Zwarts
8 Jul15:31 i i      i         i       i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul10:04 i i      i         i       i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:16 i i      i         i       i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
8 Jul12:18 i i      i         i       `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9Richard Damon
8 Jul16:17 i i      i         i        `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller8olcott
9 Jul09:58 i i      i         i         +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller6Fred. Zwarts
9 Jul14:02 i i      i         i         i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5olcott
9 Jul14:37 i i      i         i         i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4joes
9 Jul15:06 i i      i         i         i  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3olcott
9 Jul16:42 i i      i         i         i   `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2joes
9 Jul17:06 i i      i         i         i    `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
9 Jul13:00 i i      i         i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
7 Jul09:34 i i      i         `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Mikko
4 Jul23:15 i i      +* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller9olcott
5 Jul08:39 i i      i+* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller5Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul17:12 i i      ii`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller4olcott
6 Jul10:24 i i      ii `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Fred. Zwarts
6 Jul16:36 i i      ii  `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
7 Jul08:42 i i      ii   `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Fred. Zwarts
5 Jul14:20 i i      i`* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller3Richard Damon
5 Jul17:31 i i      i `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller2olcott
6 Jul01:47 i i      i  `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
5 Jul16:11 i i      `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1olcott
4 Jun 25 i `- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 +- Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25 `* Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller61Mikko

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